quote Shishikabob

The thing that bothers me is to support CxA you have to go against what the creators have said.

Keep in mind. Unlike let's say Marvel Comics "Civil War" storyline. Where they kept telling us we should agree with the pro-reg people because they were right. But everyone saw them as the bad guys.

In this case it is really only a small percentage of the fandom. It's not some wide consensus from the fanbase that the creators *bleep*ed up.

quote Shishikabob

The words of the creators are NOT up for interpretation.

Well only when they make intentionally ambiguous statements. But that is normally before some new compilation piece comes out. They are very good *bleep*-teases that way. But afterwords when they clarify what they were talking about. Or the material itself does. Then the ambiguity of the previous statement does not still stand.

A good example is KH. When one of the creators said (paraphrasing) "You could interpret it that Aerith is Clouds light". Then KH2 comes out.

quote Shishikabob

Stop playing in your fantasy world, grow up and accept the facts.

But I like my fantasy world. That being said, yes this is all utterly meaningless in the greater scheme of things. But if you are going to play in SE's world you should at least know the rules yes? We are all playing in a fantasy world. That is why I call stuff like your examples or meetings in flower fields etc. as fanfic BS.

quote Shishikabob

Having said that, yeah go ahead and throw some Clerith facts at me. But don't you dare expect me to take you seriously if you denounce the words of the creators or twist their words.

Calm down bob.....we're all friends here.


This message was edited by Lednev on Nov 02 2009.

This message was edited by Lednev on Nov 02 2009.

This message was edited by Lednev on Nov 02 2009.

Wait, are you arguing or agreeing with him? I'm confused.

quote lucedeoangel

Wow. Wow.

In my fantasy world? Please tell me why you hang around us Cleriths then. Why?

There's only like one or two Cleriths that really annoy me. And as far as I know I don't have a problem with you at all. This was me venting about certain ones. And if you haven't noticed I haven't been around CxA that much anymore. And this is why. I knew I was getting upset so I just decided not to look where things would piss me off. I made a lot of friends there and I don't want to lose them over an opinion.

And honestly you guys go on and on and on about Clotis over there and how delusional they are. I think I should be allowed the same right on other boards as long as I'm attacking the arguments and not the people.

And I still would like to know why people think statements by Nojima and Nomura are up to interpretation.

quote Lednev

Well only when they make intentionally ambiguous statements. But that is normally before some new compilation piece comes out. They are very good *bleep*-teases that way. But afterwords when they clarify what they were talking about. Or the material itself does. Then the ambiguity of the previous statement does not still stand.

Okay, true, but I'm talking about when they state something as absolute fact. Such as "Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends."
That's the end of that. It's not "You could say they were childhood friends." It's "THEY ARE" and it shouldn't be questioned.

quote

But I like my fantasy world. That being said, yes this is all utterly meaningless in the greater scheme of things. But if you are going to play in SE's world you should at least know the rules yes? We are all playing in a fantasy world. That is why I call stuff like your examples or meetings in flower fields etc. as fanfic BS.

Fair enough.

quote

Calm down bob.....we're all friends here.

I hate it when people act like I'm not allowed to get upset

quote

Wait, are you arguing or agreeing with him? I'm confused.

her.

This message was edited by Shishikabob on Nov 02 2009.

People are still debating this issue?

I still think Cloud preferred Aerith during the course of the game since I feel he views Tifa just as a good childhood friend but that's the beauty of this game is that there are some loose ends that make you think so much and have debates like this.

But then again, with Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children you can see where they're going with Cloud-Tifa.

quote KingOfAces

I still think Cloud preferred Aerith during the course of the game since I feel he views Tifa just as a good childhood friend but that's the beauty of this game is that there are some loose ends that make you think so much and have debates like this.

Yeah good call. I agree with that.

quote KingOfAces

People are still debating this issue?

Yes well, some people just can't seem to accept the story of the compilation. They have to invent their own that they like better.

quote KingOfAces

I still think Cloud preferred Aerith during the course of the game since I feel he views Tifa just as a good childhood friend

I would disagree. There is zero proof Cloud preferred Aerith. And once he gets his memory in line he is all about Tifa.

I don't like this line of thinking because some people latch on and say "well Cloud moved on with Tifa" or "he could move on with her". No. Cloud does not have to "move on". It was always Tifa.

quote KingOfAces

but that's the beauty of this game is that there are some loose ends that make you think so much and have debates like this.

The original game was just ambiguous enough to leave Cleriths wiggle room.

quote KingOfAces

But then again, with Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children you can see where they're going with Cloud-Tifa.

Well those that can't see C/T in the compilation are just being willfully ignorant of the whole situation.

One thing I'd really like a Clerith to answer is why Aerith didn't appear to Cloud before AC/C. I mean I've heard some of them say "because of his guilt" but.... why not appear before the whole guilt thing started? He was doing fine until his delivery service started . IF she really loves him, why not try to get in touch with him sooner?

Plus how is she able to speak to Cloud at his worst if his guilt was the problem?

quote Lednev

quote KingOfAces

People are still debating this issue?

Yes well, some people just can't seem to accept the story of the compilation. They have to invent their own that they like better.

quote KingOfAces

I still think Cloud preferred Aerith during the course of the game since I feel he views Tifa just as a good childhood friend

I would disagree. There is zero proof Cloud preferred Aerith. And once he gets his memory in line he is all about Tifa.

I don't like this line of thinking because some people latch on and say "well Cloud moved on with Tifa" or "he could move on with her". No. Cloud does not have to "move on". It was always Tifa.

quote KingOfAces

but that's the beauty of this game is that there are some loose ends that make you think so much and have debates like this.

The original game was just ambiguous enough to leave Cleriths wiggle room.

quote KingOfAces

But then again, with Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children you can see where they're going with Cloud-Tifa.

Well those that can't see C/T in the compilation are just being willfully ignorant of the whole situation.

Cloud DOES NOT "prefer Tifa". In Advent Children he chose to live in Aeriths church than WITH TIFA. Don't you think he would've hooked up with her if he was even REMOTELY INTO HER? I think you are the one who is blind.

In Advent Children, Tifa lectures Cloud on letting Aeris' memory hinder him from having any sort of life. DUH. He was not over her in Advent Children. Are those clues too "subtle" for you?

I like this new Clerith. S/he is full of the vigor I've been looking for

quote

Cloud DOES NOT "prefer Tifa". In Advent Children he chose to live in Aeriths church than WITH TIFA. Don't you think he would've hooked up with her if he was even REMOTELY INTO HER? I think you are the one who is blind.

And he ALSO chose to live with Tifa for two years and raise children with her and RETURN to her after AC was over

It's also been stated on more than one occasion that Cloud is happy living with Tifa. "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud..." - Cloud's Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania. This is also stated again in Distance by Nomura.


It was him feeling guilty that lead him to leave, not his love for Aerith. Unless you have a quote proving otherwise which I would love to see if you had it. I am however, fairly certain that one does not exist.

quote

In Advent Children, Tifa lectures Cloud on letting Aeris' memory hinder him from having any sort of life. DUH. He was not over her in Advent Children. Are those clues too "subtle" for you?

Lol, letting "Aerith's memory" It's her now?

Or rather letting his guilt hinder him from having any sort of life. Also the memory she was tlaking about was Sephiroth, not Aerith.

Now could you please provide me with a quote that says that Cloud went to Aerith's church to live with her out of love, rather than out of guilt? I'll be waiting. Thank you.

quote Cinamon

Cloud DOES NOT "prefer Tifa". In Advent Children he chose to live in Aeriths church than WITH TIFA. Don't you think he would've hooked up with her if he was even REMOTELY INTO HER? I think you are the one who is blind.

Alright shall we quote Clouds profile from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania?

quote

In Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past.

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
...........
The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…
...........
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.
...........
· AC – Midgar
Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.
...........
· AC – Edge~Midgar
With the help of his friends, he defeated Bahamut SHIN, which Kadaj’s gang had summoned. He defeated Sephiroth after his Advent, and returned to Tifa and the children.

Clouds happiness led to his guilt. He wants to atone for his past sins by saving Denzel. When he also contracts Gerostigma he leaves his family and begins a self-imposed exile.

As for not preferring Tifa? He chose to live with her right after Sephys defeat. He didn't have to do that.

quote Case of Tifa

“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

He also did not have to help her raise Marlene after Barret left. And he surely did not have to adopt Denzel with her.

quote Tifa profile 10 anv ult

I want to see Cloud — Marlene’s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.

And if he preferred Aerith then he surely did not have to move back with Tifa and the children at the end of AC.

quote Tifa profile CC ult

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

So keeping that all in mind you would have us believe that Cloud did not choose Tifa and he preferred living in Aerith's church?

This just scratches the surface. I could go on and on and on with these quotes. And it would take no "interpretation" or essays on Japanese symbolism.

quote Cinamon

In Advent Children, Tifa lectures Cloud on letting Aeris' memory hinder him from having any sort of life. DUH. He was not over her in Advent Children. Are those clues too "subtle" for you?

No, Tifa lectures Cloud on letting his guilt overtake his sense.

quote

Unlike Cloud, who is dragging on the past and unable to move forward, Tifa has the strength to accept reality and try to move forward. Perhaps acting as the mother for the two children has giving her further strength.

With the sudden appearance of Kadaj’s gang, she too is once again dragged into battle. She gives encouragement to Cloud, who is unable to shake off his doubts, and creates the catalyst for him to regain the will to fight.

So thank you cin. But my eyesight is fine.

I'd also like to point out this page from the Reunion Files:
http://www.killthemongoose.com/stuff/17.jpg

Notice how Sakurai makes the connection between Tifa's "Is it a memory or us?" line with Cloud's "Stay where you belong in my memories." line.

Tifa was talking about Sephiroth, not Aerith.

quote Shishikabob

I'd also like to point out this page from the Reunion Files:
http://www.killthemongoose.com/stuff/17.jpg

Notice how Sakurai makes the connection between Tifa's "Is it a memory or us?" line with Cloud's "Stay where you belong in my memories." line.

Tifa was talking about Sephiroth, not Aerith.

I actually saw AC before I ever played the game, so I didn't have any preconcieved notions before watching it. nor did I have a Tifa or Aeris bias. However, it had be been clear to me, from the movie, that Cloud had an Aeris obsession

How was Tifa talking about Sephiroth? You're clearly taking stuff out of context and merely over analyzing. What about the memories that are actually shown of Aeris, you're just dismissing those because they would be inconvenient for your point. All those "memories" and flashbacks shown of Aeris are actually in reference to Sephiroth huh?*note my sarcasm*

"Dilly dally shilly shally", she said that in context of referring to Aeris. I don't see that tying in with Sephiroth whatsoever. Cloud was guilty because he felt he was at fault for Aeris' death, it doesn't have to be said outright because the references within the movie itself were enough. In his "hallucinations" he talks about how he wants to be forgiven by her, that's what is affecting him.

Another point, the part where Cloud carries Aeris to the life stream after she dies also implies that they are more than just friends. That type of scene is very common in movies/dramas/etc and usually implies a romantic love.

Oh I'm so happy right now I could cry... would you be interested in joining a forum where we debate the love triangle? We so could use more Cleriths. Lemme know if you are interested, okay?

quote

I actually saw AC before I ever played the game, so I didn't have any preconcieved notions before watching it. nor did I have a Tifa or Aeris bias. However, it had be been clear to me, from the movie, that Cloud had an Aeris obsession

I have a similar story, though I did finally buckle down and play the game a short while before AC came out. Honestly I didn't see it as Clerirth or Cloti because I didn't give a crap about this stuff back then.

quote

How was Tifa talking about Sephiroth? You're clearly taking stuff out of context and merely over analyzing. What about the memories that are actually shown of Aeris, you're just dismissing those because they would be inconvenient for your point. All those "memories" and flashbacks shown of Aeris are actually in reference to Sephiroth huh?*note my sarcasm*

Okay, you're kind of all over the place. Tifa was talking about Sephiroth... and when are the memories of Aerith shown? The only time I recall memories of Aerith being shown are when Sephiroth asks "What is most important to you? blah blah" Cloud has a glimpse of Aerith then and I am by no means dismissing it. I just don't see how it connects to what Tifa said. Cloud has memories of Sephiroth haunting him as well. He also has memories of Zack, so who's to say Tifa is for sure talking about Aerith? She might be talking about Zack or Sephiroth or all of these things combined.

The bottom line is Cloud was letting his guilt build up because of these memories.

quote

"Dilly dally shilly shally", she said that in context of referring to Aeris. I don't see that tying in with Sephiroth whatsoever. Cloud was guilty because he felt he was at fault for Aeris' death, it doesn't have to be said outright because the references within the movie itself were enough. In his "hallucinations" he talks about how he wants to be forgiven by her, that's what is affecting him.

No, Dilly dally shilly shally was her way of saying Cloud was dilly dallying in the past and not letting go of his guilt.

Do you really think that Tifa's so cold hearted that she'd say to Cloud, "Cloud get over the dead girl, k?" No way. She knew Cloud was better than to dwell in the past like that and she's telling him to get over his guilt and move on.

And of course Cloud felt guilty over Aerith's death. He also felt guilty for Zack's death as well and for failing Denzel after he got geostigma, the very disease he was searching for a cure for.

Cloud never hallucinated in the movie. Aerith was actually speaking to his mind at that point. She too wanted Cloud to stop feeling guilty. Notice Aerith also says the dilly dally line at one point because she ALSO wants Cloud to move on from his guilt. Right afterwards Cloud asks if sins are ever forgiven. What he wanted from Aerith was forgiveness.

quote

Another point, the part where Cloud carries Aeris to the life stream after she dies also implies that they are more than just friends. That type of scene is very common in movies/dramas/etc and usually implies a romantic love.

That never happened, that was just a pond, not a lifestream. And what was Cloud supposed to do? Just leave her dead body? Of course he's going to give her a burial. Notice how he held Kadaj before he died? He was not romantically involved with Kadaj now was he? Same with Tifa, he held her in a similar way when she was unconscious.

I could provide you with many more quotes... but you seem to have ignored the ones Lednev posted. Can I please ask you to take a look at them and tell me what you think of them? Thanks.

quote Cinamon

I actually saw AC before I ever played the game, so I didn't have any preconcieved notions before watching it. nor did I have a Tifa or Aeris bias. However, it had be been clear to me, from the movie, that Cloud had an Aeris obsession

Cloud is obsessed with his guilt. Aerith is a symbol of Cloud's guilt.

Once Cloud forgives himself he goes back "where he belongs". To Tifa.

quote Cinamon

How was Tifa talking about Sephiroth? You're clearly taking stuff out of context and merely over analyzing. What about the memories that are actually shown of Aeris, you're just dismissing those because they would be inconvenient for your point. All those "memories" and flashbacks shown of Aeris are actually in reference to Sephiroth huh?*note my sarcasm*

Yeah it's not like Cloud would have any reason to connect his guilt about Aerith to Sephy.

quote Cinamon

Cloud was guilty because he felt he was at fault for Aeris' death, it doesn't have to be said outright because the references within the movie itself were enough. In his "hallucinations" he talks about how he wants to be forgiven by her, that's what is affecting him.

It goes much deeper than that. But you are basically right. Aerith is the symbol of Cloud's guilt.

Strange. All of Aerith's references to Cloud in AC have to do with guilt and her maternal presence. Funny how there is no mention of either one wanting to be with the other.

quote Cinamon

Another point, the part where Cloud carries Aeris to the life stream after she dies also implies that they are more than just friends. That type of scene is very common in movies/dramas/etc and usually implies a romantic love.

And spending the night with a woman before the final battle after trying to confess to her does not? Or how about after said battle telling that woman you want to be with her from that point on and you can succeed because of her? Or how about raising two children with that woman?

Also worthy of note is that Cloud's love for Aerith is not unique. It is shared by all of AVALANCHE. Only his guilt is mentioned as separate.

quote Shishikabob

Oh I'm so happy right now I could cry... would you be interested in joining a forum where we debate the love triangle? We so could use more Cleriths. Lemme know if you are interested, okay?

quote

I actually saw AC before I ever played the game, so I didn't have any preconcieved notions before watching it. nor did I have a Tifa or Aeris bias. However, it had be been clear to me, from the movie, that Cloud had an Aeris obsession

I have a similar story, though I did finally buckle down and play the game a short while before AC came out. Honestly I didn't see it as Clerirth or Cloti because I didn't give a crap about this stuff back then.

quote

How was Tifa talking about Sephiroth? You're clearly taking stuff out of context and merely over analyzing. What about the memories that are actually shown of Aeris, you're just dismissing those because they would be inconvenient for your point. All those "memories" and flashbacks shown of Aeris are actually in reference to Sephiroth huh?*note my sarcasm*

Okay, you're kind of all over the place. Tifa was talking about Sephiroth... and when are the memories of Aerith shown? The only time I recall memories of Aerith being shown are when Sephiroth asks "What is most important to you? blah blah" Cloud has a glimpse of Aerith then and I am by no means dismissing it. I just don't see how it connects to what Tifa said. Cloud has memories of Sephiroth haunting him as well. He also has memories of Zack, so who's to say Tifa is for sure talking about Aerith? She might be talking about Zack or Sephiroth or all of these things combined.

The bottom line is Cloud was letting his guilt build up because of these memories.

quote

"Dilly dally shilly shally", she said that in context of referring to Aeris. I don't see that tying in with Sephiroth whatsoever. Cloud was guilty because he felt he was at fault for Aeris' death, it doesn't have to be said outright because the references within the movie itself were enough. In his "hallucinations" he talks about how he wants to be forgiven by her, that's what is affecting him.

No, Dilly dally shilly shally was her way of saying Cloud was dilly dallying in the past and not letting go of his guilt.

Do you really think that Tifa's so cold hearted that she'd say to Cloud, "Cloud get over the dead girl, k?" No way. She knew Cloud was better than to dwell in the past like that and she's telling him to get over his guilt and move on.

And of course Cloud felt guilty over Aerith's death. He also felt guilty for Zack's death as well and for failing Denzel after he got geostigma, the very disease he was searching for a cure for.

Cloud never hallucinated in the movie. Aerith was actually speaking to his mind at that point. She too wanted Cloud to stop feeling guilty. Notice Aerith also says the dilly dally line at one point because she ALSO wants Cloud to move on from his guilt. Right afterwards Cloud asks if sins are ever forgiven. What he wanted from Aerith was forgiveness.

quote

Another point, the part where Cloud carries Aeris to the life stream after she dies also implies that they are more than just friends. That type of scene is very common in movies/dramas/etc and usually implies a romantic love.

That never happened, that was just a pond, not a lifestream. And what was Cloud supposed to do? Just leave her dead body? Of course he's going to give her a burial. Notice how he held Kadaj before he died? He was not romantically involved with Kadaj now was he? Same with Tifa, he held her in a similar way when she was unconscious.

I could provide you with many more quotes... but you seem to have ignored the ones Lednev posted. Can I please ask you to take a look at them and tell me what you think of them? Thanks.

For one thing, type your post in one summary because it hurts my eyes to read that.

Now you think that's a POND? You seriously need to go watch that movie again. In both the game AND the movie it clearly says he put her back in the lifestream.

You're comparing the mild Kadaj scene to the Aeris scene? Now you really make no sense. I've scene numerous Japanese movies and East Asian movies that have similiar scenes and they always depict a romantic love. The girl dies, the guy carries her off in a lonesome state to float her away in a river...blah, blah, blah. It's the same common, "boy meets girl, girl dies, guy carries girl away". That type of scene is commonly used in east asian movies as well as western movies to depict LOVERS. If you're dismissing it, then you're an unreasonable person to argue with because you don't make equal comparisons. Did Cloud carry Kadaj away and float him away in river crying his eyes out?

You have not provided me with any quotes/evidence that suggest a Cloud Tifa romance, infact the contrary.

Sure Cloud felt guilty about numerous things but he said, in the movie, that he wanted to be FORGIVEN BY AERIS.

"Dilly, dally, shilly, shally" IS a reference made by Tifa ABOUT Aeris, why? Right after that it cuts to the scene of Cloud saying "but..I let you die" TO AERIS. Let me spell it out for you, "but I let Aeris die" is what he meant. Not Sephiroth, nor Zack.

Are you sure we watched the same movie because you seem to dismiss alot of the facts because they're not going in your favor.