quote Shishikabob

her.

Oh lol, sorry. But at least this thread proved itself to be useful, after all.
Is Cinamon a she too?

quote Lednev

And spending the night with a woman before the final battle after trying to confess to her does not? Or how about after said battle telling that woman you want to be with her from that point on and you can succeed because of her? Or how about raising two children with that woman?

Huh? Is this in the game or in a retcon?

quote Lednev

Also worthy of note is that Cloud's love for Aerith is not unique. It is shared by all of AVALANCHE. Only his guilt is mentioned as separate.

You think so?

quote Cinamon

For one thing, type your post in one summary because it hurts my eyes to read that.

Most debate posts are done that way: point for point. It hurts my eyes to read one big paragraph, lol.

quote Cinamon

Now you think that's a POND? You seriously need to go watch that movie again. In both the game AND the movie it clearly says he put her back in the lifestream.

First off, it doesn't SAY anything. I've played the game and watched the movie both several times. It's water. It's been water for 12 years. Sorry.

As far as the whole "common scene" thing, I can't speak for Asian films, but I've never seen an American film depict a scene like this. Maybe you can provide an example? And in no game or movie does it show Cloud crying. It just doesn't. Don't make stuff up. Is he upset? Sure. But him letting Aerith go in the water doesn't mean that he's in love with her. It means he cares enough about her to lay her body to rest someplace nice.

quote Cinamon

"Dilly, dally, shilly, shally" IS a reference made by Tifa ABOUT Aeris, why? Right after that it cuts to the scene of Cloud saying "but..I let you die" TO AERIS. Let me spell it out for you, "but I let Aeris die" is what he meant. Not Sephiroth, nor Zack.

Ok. Dilly dally is Tifa's way of telling Cloud to forgive himself for Aerith's death. I agree that it really had very little, if anything to do with Sephiroth. In fact, that's the first I've heard of that. He's seeking forgiveness for not being able to prevent Aerith's death.

This message was edited by Tifabelle on Nov 05 2009.

Cinamon, if you prefer I make my posts in one long paragraph then that's no problem. I thought it would be easier the other way and that's why I did that. (you a member of CxA BTW? Just curious if I know you)

Sorry yes it was a lake. And all of the dead go back into the lifestream. She died, she was put in the lake, and her spirit went into the lifestream. That's where she is in Case of Lifestream White

Anyways, I don't know much about Asian culture so I can't comment about that. I Do believe that Cloud have very deep feelings for Aerith when she was alive, possibly even romantic ones, but after he and Tifa talked in the lifestream, he realized who he was meant to be with.

FFVII AC/C was all about Cloud getting over his guilt so that he could lead a normal life with his family. In the end of the movie, he finally forgives himself and is able to do so. Yes, he wanted forgiveness by Aerith, but it never says he wanted love from her. Just forgiveness. It never said he wanted to BE with her and only her, he just wanted forgiveness.

And who killed Aerith? Sephiroth. So yes, there is some Sephiroth context in the dilly dally line.

As for official quotes, okay I'll provide but, I want you to reply to all of them.

This is a quote from Nojima in the Reunion Files. He's talking about AC.

quote

Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged.

From the AC Prologue Book:

quote

Tifa, who from 2 years ago has been the only one Cloud opened his heart to. Now he has closed off his heart even from her. ~AC Prologue Book

Now i'm not arguing that opening your heart means on confess your love, that's simply not true. However of all the people Cloud has met in his life, Tifa is the ONLY one he opened his heart to, never did he do it to Aerith.

Nojima on Case of Tifa:

quote

Episode Tifa [Case of Tifa] ... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs). ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

Why would he be mentioning love marriage and family if Tifa and Cloud were not in that type of a relationship? It makes no sense for him to mention love marriage and family if he's operating on the assumption that Cloud and Tifa are just friends.

quote

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud. ~Cloud's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Tifa Understands Cloud more than anyone:

quote

Apart from being Cloud’s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him.” ~Tifa`s Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Tifa is important:

quote

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.  ~Cloud's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

ON this page it states that Tifa was “left behind by a man.”
She can't be left behind by a man she was never with:
http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/022ho.jpg

According to the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 33), on that night, in “the final stage of the story,” Cloud and Tifa “communicate their feelings to each other” (”Kuraudo to wa monogatari
no shuuban ni omoi wo tsuwase”) and thereafter, live together in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.
The FFVII Ultimania Omega makes the same claim on three separate occasions — once in Cloud’s profile (pg. 15), once in Tifa’s (pg. 27), and once in the Story Playback section of the book (pg. 198). In the latter, the phrase “disclose their feelings for each other” is used (”tagai no omoi wo uchi ake”).
Tifa Crisis Core bio:

quote

"In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC."

here it mentions "Their future"
http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/020.jpg

I really don't know how I can make it more clear but I have more quotes if you'd like to see them.

This message was edited by Shishikabob on Nov 05 2009.

quote Cinamon

You're comparing the mild Kadaj scene to the Aeris scene? Now you really make no sense. I've scene numerous Japanese movies and East Asian movies that have similiar scenes and they always depict a romantic love. The girl dies, the guy carries her off in a lonesome state to float her away in a river...blah, blah, blah. It's the same common, "boy meets girl, girl dies, guy carries girl away". That type of scene is commonly used in east asian movies as well as western movies to depict LOVERS. If you're dismissing it, then you're an unreasonable person to argue with because you don't make equal comparisons. Did Cloud carry Kadaj away and float him away in river crying his eyes out?

You have not provided me with any quotes/evidence that suggest a Cloud Tifa romance, infact the contrary.

So we provide you with quotes talking about C/T realizing their feelings for each other living together and starting a family. And that is the opposite of suggesting romance? And your big response is an overly long paragraph about Japanese symbolism? With no examples provided I might add.

quote Cinamon

"Dilly, dally, shilly, shally" IS a reference made by Tifa ABOUT Aeris, why? Right after that it cuts to the scene of Cloud saying "but..I let you die" TO AERIS. Let me spell it out for you, "but I let Aeris die" is what he meant. Not Sephiroth, nor Zack.

TIFA was making a statement about Cloud dragging the past around. Cloud thinks of Aerith because she is a symbol of his guilt/failures.

Tifa did not tell Cloud to choose between her or Aerith

quote Cinamon

Are you sure we watched the same movie because you seem to dismiss alot of the facts because they're not going in your favor.

From the level of your responses so far I am glad none of us saw the movie you did.

quote Fire Fox

Huh? Is this in the game or in a retcon?

Fire just because something doesn't happen in the original game does not make it a retcon. Epically if it is placed after it on the time line.

And let me say this. I figure anyone with a passing interest in the LTD or FFVII in general would know Cloud and Tifa are living together and raising two children.

Maybe we should clarify. A retcon is a changing of information - a rewrite, if you will, of an event that has already been depicted in at least one form of media. Everything that happens in Advent Children is all original (except for the recapping, but that was just depicting what happened in the game). There are no retcons for the original game done by AC.

The Compilation is a singular storyline. The original game can no longer be held on its own. AC, CC, Way to a Smile, & DoC are all apart of the same story.

quote Tifabelle

Maybe we should clarify. A retcon is a changing of information - a rewrite, if you will, of an event that has already been depicted in at least one form of media. Everything that happens in Advent Children is all original (except for the recapping, but that was just depicting what happened in the game). There are no retcons for the original game done by AC.

The Compilation is a singular storyline. The original game can no longer be held on its own. AC, CC, Way to a Smile, & DoC are all apart of the same story.

Well if you believe in your heart of hearts that Cloud chose Aerith in the game FFVII. Then I guess everything that has come out since has been a retcon.

Did Cinimon get scared off by our proofs all ready?

quote Tifabelle

quote Cinamon

For one thing, type your post in one summary because it hurts my eyes to read that.

Most debate posts are done that way: point for point. It hurts my eyes to read one big paragraph, lol.

quote Cinamon

Now you think that's a POND? You seriously need to go watch that movie again. In both the game AND the movie it clearly says he put her back in the lifestream.

First off, it doesn't SAY anything. I've played the game and watched the movie both several times. It's water. It's been water for 12 years. Sorry.

As far as the whole "common scene" thing, I can't speak for Asian films, but I've never seen an American film depict a scene like this. Maybe you can provide an example? And in no game or movie does it show Cloud crying. It just doesn't. Don't make stuff up. Is he upset? Sure. But him letting Aerith go in the water doesn't mean that he's in love with her. It means he cares enough about her to lay her body to rest someplace nice.

quote Cinamon

"Dilly, dally, shilly, shally" IS a reference made by Tifa ABOUT Aeris, why? Right after that it cuts to the scene of Cloud saying "but..I let you die" TO AERIS. Let me spell it out for you, "but I let Aeris die" is what he meant. Not Sephiroth, nor Zack.

Ok. Dilly dally is Tifa's way of telling Cloud to forgive himself for Aerith's death. I agree that it really had very little, if anything to do with Sephiroth. In fact, that's the first I've heard of that. He's seeking forgiveness for not being able to prevent Aerith's death.

This message was edited by Tifabelle on Nov 05 2009.

Okay well I can't reply to all the other posts and I will just summarize it in this one post.

It doesn't matter if it's water or the lifestream, cause that's not the point. You're actually arguing about something doesn't protray to the point. Lets say it is water, the point is still there. That's like arguing about the color of a dress, whether the dress is purple or pink, it is still a dress. We're actually arguing about whether it's a dress or a pair of jeans, not the color of a dress. Anyways just a comparison.

quote Shishikabob

Cinamon, if you prefer I make my posts in one long paragraph then that's no problem. I thought it would be easier the other way and that's why I did that. (you a member of CxA BTW? Just curious if I know you)

Sorry yes it was a lake. And all of the dead go back into the lifestream. She died, she was put in the lake, and her spirit went into the lifestream. That's where she is in Case of Lifestream White

Anyways, I don't know much about Asian culture so I can't comment about that. I Do believe that Cloud have very deep feelings for Aerith when she was alive, possibly even romantic ones, but after he and Tifa talked in the lifestream, he realized who he was meant to be with.

FFVII AC/C was all about Cloud getting over his guilt so that he could lead a normal life with his family. In the end of the movie, he finally forgives himself and is able to do so. Yes, he wanted forgiveness by Aerith, but it never says he wanted love from her. Just forgiveness. It never said he wanted to BE with her and only her, he just wanted forgiveness.

And who killed Aerith? Sephiroth. So yes, there is some Sephiroth context in the dilly dally line.

As for official quotes, okay I'll provide but, I want you to reply to all of them.

This is a quote from Nojima in the Reunion Files. He's talking about AC.

quote

Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged.

From the AC Prologue Book:

quote

Tifa, who from 2 years ago has been the only one Cloud opened his heart to. Now he has closed off his heart even from her. ~AC Prologue Book

Now i'm not arguing that opening your heart means on confess your love, that's simply not true. However of all the people Cloud has met in his life, Tifa is the ONLY one he opened his heart to, never did he do it to Aerith.

Nojima on Case of Tifa:

quote

Episode Tifa [Case of Tifa] ... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs). ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

Why would he be mentioning love marriage and family if Tifa and Cloud were not in that type of a relationship? It makes no sense for him to mention love marriage and family if he's operating on the assumption that Cloud and Tifa are just friends.

quote

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud. ~Cloud's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Tifa Understands Cloud more than anyone:

quote

Apart from being Cloud’s childhood friend, she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him.” ~Tifa`s Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Tifa is important:

quote

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.  ~Cloud's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

ON this page it states that Tifa was “left behind by a man.”
She can't be left behind by a man she was never with:
http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/022ho.jpg

According to the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 33), on that night, in “the final stage of the story,” Cloud and Tifa “communicate their feelings to each other” (”Kuraudo to wa monogatari
no shuuban ni omoi wo tsuwase”) and thereafter, live together in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.
The FFVII Ultimania Omega makes the same claim on three separate occasions — once in Cloud’s profile (pg. 15), once in Tifa’s (pg. 27), and once in the Story Playback section of the book (pg. 198). In the latter, the phrase “disclose their feelings for each other” is used (”tagai no omoi wo uchi ake”).
Tifa Crisis Core bio:

quote

"In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC."

here it mentions "Their future"
http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/020.jpg

I really don't know how I can make it more clear but I have more quotes if you'd like to see them.

This message was edited by Shishikabob on Nov 05 2009.

What does that link have anything to do with love relationships? It just talks about how she's coping without Cloud.

Well we are debating about a love triangle, and even you admit that he did have feelings for Aeris while she was alive. Then we're just disagreeing on the post death part, whether he's still pining away or not. So AC takes place two years after the events of ff7, and during that time he is still guilty over Aeris' death, and admit, he is not over her. At the end of AC, there is a secret ending where Cloud drives endlessly on his motorcycle while there are shots of Aeris standing in a field as if waiting for him. No sign of Tifa.

I've never read anything post AC about Cloud, but this debate is about the love triangle of who Cloud preferred. Even if he eventually settled for Tifa, that is not the main point of this thread. Ofcourse Tifa is an important character, I never said she wasn't, the beauty of it is that she loves Cloud while he doesn't reciprocate the feelings in a romantic manner. That's why it's a love triangle. Previously, you said that Cloud had never preferred Aeris more than Tifa but now you admit he does. The proofs you've provided are widely interpretive therefore, they're not actual proofs.

quote Cinamon

Well we are debating about a love triangle, and even you admit that he did have feelings for Aeris while she was alive.

No she said it was possible. There is no proof whatsoever Cloud felt anything like romantic love for Aerith. Ever.

The only emotion that singles Cloud out from the others in AVALANCHE is his massive guilt.

quote Cinamon

Then we're just disagreeing on the post death part, whether he's still pining away or not. So AC takes place two years after the events of ff7, and during that time he is still guilty over Aeris' death, and admit, he is not over her.

Feeling guilt and 'pining away' after her are two completely different things. Never once is it mentioned in universe or by the creators that Cloud and Aerith desire to "be" with each other. Cloud wants absolution from his guilt And Aerith only wants to protect Cloud when she notices Sephy in the Lifestream.

quote Cinamon

At the end of AC, there is a secret ending where Cloud drives endlessly on his motorcycle while there are shots of Aeris standing in a field as if waiting for him. No sign of Tifa.

Watch the end of ACC. Sorry but no Aerith in the flower fields. Cloud still goes back home where he belongs. And the last two shots of the movie are very Z/A.

quote Cinamon

I've never read anything post AC about Cloud, but this debate is about the love triangle of who Cloud preferred. Even if he eventually settled for Tifa, that is not the main point of this thread.

Yes this is about who Cloud preferres. And it was always Tifa. Cloud never had to 'move on' with her. Oh yeah and your personal preference or how you played the first disk of FFVII have no bearing on Cloud's feelings whatsoever.

quote Cinamon

Ofcourse Tifa is an important character, I never said she wasn't, the beauty of it is that she loves Cloud while he doesn't reciprocate the feelings in a romantic manner. That's why it's a love triangle.

Actually it stopped being a love Triangle the moment Aerith died. If not there then in the lifestream when Cloud regained his true self. Or if not there then under the highwind when Cloud and Tifa act upon the feelings disclosed in the LS. Or if not there then right after the battle when Cloud tells Tifa he wants to be with her from that Point on. or maybe when they start raising Marlene together. or maybe when they adopt Denzel.

And it only requires two people having feelings for one other person for it to be a triangle.

quote Cinamon

Previously, you said that Cloud had never preferred Aeris more than Tifa but now you admit he does. The proofs you've provided are widely interpretive therefore, they're not actual proofs.

Clerith is a hell of a drug.

quote

Well we are debating about a love triangle, and even you admit that he did have feelings for Aeris while she was alive. Then we're just disagreeing on the post death part, whether he's still pining away or not. So AC takes place two years after the events of ff7, and during that time he is still guilty over Aeris' death, and admit, he is not over her. At the end of AC, there is a secret ending where Cloud drives endlessly on his motorcycle while there are shots of Aeris standing in a field as if waiting for him. No sign of Tifa.

And if you read the script you'd see it said he drives PAST her while she looks lonely. So no, he did not stop to see her.

And how on earth is "Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for one another and come to live together in AC and DoC' up for interpretation? Have you ever in your entire life known the phrase "feelings for each other" to mean anything else but love? EVER? If you have, please provide an example.

quote

I've never read anything post AC about Cloud, but this debate is about the love triangle of who Cloud preferred. Even if he eventually settled for Tifa, that is not the main point of this thread. Ofcourse Tifa is an important character, I never said she wasn't, the beauty of it is that she loves Cloud while he doesn't reciprocate the feelings in a romantic manner. That's why it's a love triangle. Previously, you said that Cloud had never preferred Aeris more than Tifa but now you admit he does. The proofs you've provided are widely interpretive therefore, they're not actual proofs.

Tifa's an important woman TO CLOUD. and I never said he loved Aerith more than Tifa. I said he may have had feelings for her when she was alive, but after the lifestream event he realized who he was meant to be with.

Also could you please actually read my quotes and respond to them and not just go "It's all up to interpretation." I'd like to hear WHAT Your interpretation is or else I feel like you're just trying to get out of the debate because you don't have a response. So please respond to my ENTIRE post instead of ignoring what you don't like. Or else I'll basically assume you're trolling. Thanks you.

quote Lednev

Actually it stopped being a love Triangle the moment Aerith died.

Right on.

Glad you agree Clotis canon.

Well, taking all retcons in consideration, yes.

Name one retcon.

quote Lednev

quote Cinamon

Well we are debating about a love triangle, and even you admit that he did have feelings for Aeris while she was alive.

No she said it was possible. There is no proof whatsoever Cloud felt anything like romantic love for Aerith. Ever.

The only emotion that singles Cloud out from the others in AVALANCHE is his massive guilt.

quote Cinamon

Then we're just disagreeing on the post death part, whether he's still pining away or not. So AC takes place two years after the events of ff7, and during that time he is still guilty over Aeris' death, and admit, he is not over her.

Feeling guilt and 'pining away' after her are two completely different things. Never once is it mentioned in universe or by the creators that Cloud and Aerith desire to "be" with each other. Cloud wants absolution from his guilt And Aerith only wants to protect Cloud when she notices Sephy in the Lifestream.

quote Cinamon

At the end of AC, there is a secret ending where Cloud drives endlessly on his motorcycle while there are shots of Aeris standing in a field as if waiting for him. No sign of Tifa.

Watch the end of ACC. Sorry but no Aerith in the flower fields. Cloud still goes back home where he belongs. And the last two shots of the movie are very Z/A.

quote Cinamon

I've never read anything post AC about Cloud, but this debate is about the love triangle of who Cloud preferred. Even if he eventually settled for Tifa, that is not the main point of this thread.

Yes this is about who Cloud preferres. And it was always Tifa. Cloud never had to 'move on' with her. Oh yeah and your personal preference or how you played the first disk of FFVII have no bearing on Cloud's feelings whatsoever.

quote Cinamon

Ofcourse Tifa is an important character, I never said she wasn't, the beauty of it is that she loves Cloud while he doesn't reciprocate the feelings in a romantic manner. That's why it's a love triangle.

Actually it stopped being a love Triangle the moment Aerith died. If not there then in the lifestream when Cloud regained his true self. Or if not there then under the highwind when Cloud and Tifa act upon the feelings disclosed in the LS. Or if not there then right after the battle when Cloud tells Tifa he wants to be with her from that Point on. or maybe when they start raising Marlene together. or maybe when they adopt Denzel.

And it only requires two people having feelings for one other person for it to be a triangle.

quote Cinamon

Previously, you said that Cloud had never preferred Aeris more than Tifa but now you admit he does. The proofs you've provided are widely interpretive therefore, they're not actual proofs.

Clerith is a hell of a drug.

WHAT? You have hypocrtical and unreasonable arguments, hence why I've been ignoring your posts...*hint*

"And it only requires two people having feelings for one other person for it to be a triangle." WTH does that mean? A love triangle means three people. That one statement alone shows how much of a waste of time it is to even bother with you.

When in the world did he always "prefer" Tifa? There is a general consensus that in the events of FF7, Cloud preferred Aeris. When Cloud and Aeris goes off together in the temple, right before Aeris runs away, Aeris asks Cait Sith about her and Cloud's compatibility and he congratulates them and then mutters "poor Tifa" implying that Tifa is the third wheel. They don't have to come out and say Cloud loves Aeris more since the implications are clear. And yes, there is an "Aeris in the flower field scene".

Aeris died and yet he still hasn't moved on two years LATER. Otherwise, he would've been a happy go lucky couple with Tifa already. Notice how they weren't? Notice how he doesn't answer when she calls?

Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa but that had ended as soon as he left Nibelheim. Besides, Cloud and Tifa were not really "childhood friends", she was the "cool girl" with lots of friends and often teased Cloud. Aeris is the one that really loved him for who he is. During the date, she tells him she senses "his real personality" and she wants to get to know him.

@ Shish

I could dig up equally crappy quotes from things such as "The maiden who travels the planet" or post FF7 works. Provide me with specific quotes from the game or AC that implies he prefers Tifa over Aeris. We're debating who Cloud loves more, not the fact that Tifa is more convenient. *yawns*