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Eliwood the Slayer Neolithic total posts: 6646 since: Jul 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 10:16pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote WJC quote Bull. You don't have to promote them all at the same time. I had a level 20/5 joshua at 14 and a level 18 Marisa at chapter 14. You don't need to promote them all at the same time. And that would be because Marisa joins underlevelled. My statement specifically said when neither unit is underlevelled. You specifically said all promote at 20. So that means whatever time they come, they are still supposed to promote the same time as the others. quote Again, bull. It's not a bad idea to promote others first. Ross can survive at 20/20, where Colm might need that seal to help him. Feeding one unit the Exp necessary to get him/her to 20/20 means they'll be getting less than half as much Exp per kill as lower-levelled units; it's wasteful to use your units that way. Promote one, then promote the others. And I meant to say Ross 20. I don't think that will be a waste. But I do know a waste here that is online right now, and it is not me... quote There is no way that you can win this by pointing out all the things that already been proven. Like Ross berserker > hero for example. So you've quit posting in the debate thread and are now simply assuming that you are correct without supporting your claim? Oh wait, you've been doing that all along. Not impressed. All the facts are in the DT. And I don't have time now to quote everything they said.
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Insanity Prevails (neocrs) (moderator) Site Contributor's Forum User Reviews Critiques and Help total posts: 14842 neopoints: 7043 GameGrep pts: 412 since: Feb 2003	Oct 12, 06 at 10:23pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote All the facts are in the DT. True. Most come from posters WJC and TS. I threw in some too. Feel we're wrong? Have the guts to come back with some proof your end that guarentees 20/20 endgame (something we've disproved by validating the EXP formula through ingame testing and creating comparisons). Eh, I think WJC's point is that most units should be promoted around the same time, and that the levels should be pretty similar (bar when a unit first joins in the case of underleveled) for your main party, unless you give a few units far more kills than the others, thus improving their levels but destroying the levels of your other main party unit levels and thus still keeping the overall average at around 20/10 endgame. ------------------- General Legend of Zelda
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Eliwood the Slayer Neolithic total posts: 6646 since: Jul 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 10:36pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Insanity Prevails quote All the facts are in the DT. True. Most come from posters WJC and TS. I threw in some too. Feel we're wrong? Have the guts to come back with some proof your end that guarentees 20/20 endgame (something we've disproved by validating the EXP formula through ingame testing and creating comparisons). Again, I told you that you get more than 4-5 exp per monster on Darkling woods. You get 20-30. No one knows the real formula, and if you found it, link me. You get up to 20/10 at Darkling woods. Meaning, you just need 5-4 kills each to level up. Eh, I think WJC's point is that most units should be promoted around the same time, and that the levels should be pretty similar (bar when a unit first joins in the case of underleveled) for your main party, unless you give a few units far more kills than the others, thus improving their levels but destroying the levels of your other main party unit levels and thus still keeping the overall average at around 20/10 endgame. Look above. I'm telling you that you can get to 20/20.
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TemplarSimon high on "N" total posts: 736 since: Sep 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 10:51pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Youi get the orions bolt on chap 7, so it's impossible to get to 20/1 by chapter 6. Too bad I said 20/0, eh? quote And, it is possible to get your Neimi to 20/20. You get her on chapter 3, so just make her kill all the enemies, and she could possibly get there. And...the average for the other eleven units is their joining level if Neimi's killing everything starting at Chapter 3 unless the unit got kills before Chapter 3 (and even then, I'd expect Eirika and Gilliam to be the only ones at a level different from their joining time, or 5/0 each). Your average team is likely to be even lower than 20/10 in this case, which means you should really be comparing Neimi at a lower level than 20/10. You guys missed my point: Yes, a unit might reach 20/20 by endgame, but who's to say they were one of the 26 units who DIDN'T receive EXP and are thus at base level? You go with mode team level because, as its name implies, it's the most common level for your units to be at. Or, of course, you could also use average team levels, but in this case there's no difference between mode and average since you can't get "EXP-screwed" or "EXP-blessed." quote TS, where did I say "Level6" in my post? WHERE? That's right, nowhere. If you're allowed to imply, so can I. You stated that you would promote your units whenever you receive the promotion items. Due to this statement and the repeated usage of 20/20 averages as opposed to 10/20 averages on your part, I'm getting the implication that your units are at 20/0 when you recieve the promotion items. You receive a Guiding Ring at the end of Chapter 5 and an Orion's Bolt at the end of Chapter 6. Therefore, I'm assuming that you have Neimi at 20/0 by Chapter 6 and Artur/Lute/Moulder/Natasha at 20/0 by Chapter 5. quote WJC post stated that getting a few units to 20/20 without going for the rest is "unfair." How is it unfair if I don't even plan on using the units I don't bother with? Huh? Funny how he never used the word "unfair," isn't it? quote Bull. You don't have to promote them all at the same time. I had a level 20/5 joshua at 14 and a level 18 Marisa at chapter 14. You don't need to promote them all at the same time. If you're going to tell me to take typing classes, I'll tell you that you need to relearn how to read, since you clearly didn't read the patr about underlevelled units. quote Again, bull. It's not a bad idea to promote others first. Ross can survive at 20/20, where Colm might need that seal to help him. No one said anything about promoting others first was a bad idea; no way I'm going to wait until my 16/0 Artur hits 20/0 before I promote my 20/0 Franz, for instance. It was stated that massive favoritism (and the subsequent allowance of a few units to hit 20/20 at the expense of the rest of the team) was a bad idea because of this reason. [using the above example again] I would much prefer a 20/10 Great Knight Franz and 20/10 Sage Artur to a 20/20 Great Knight Franz and a 15/0 Monk Artur. quote There is no way that you can win this by pointing out all the things that already been proven. Like Ross berserker > hero for example. And a bad example it is, considering you entirely gave up on rebutting our points (effectively conceding). If anything, the thread proved Hero > Berserker. quote You specifically said all promote at 20. So that means whatever time they come, they are still supposed to promote the same time as the others. Yes, he did specifically say all promote at 20 within a couple of chapters of deviation (ie Chapters 14-16 for promotion). You've construed that into "They must all promote at 20 at the exact same time," which certainly isn't the case. quote Promote one, then promote the others. And I meant to say Ross 20. I don't think that will be a waste. Well, duh. Of course that's what we do. You've taken the fact that one of the givens in our own standard of debating is that all characters in our party will promote within a couple of chapters of each other and twisted it into promoting at the same time. The reason we might use Chapter 15 as the promotion time is because units typically promote anywhere from Chapters 14-16; we average that and decide that Chapter 15 is the promotion time we're going to use. quote But I do know a waste here that is online right now, and it is not me... Pity, I expected a stronger insult. I won't say you've been a waste of time - you've given us an opponent in debating Hero v Berserker and allowed us to back our statements in a debating style. quote All the facts are in the DT. And I don't have time now to quote everything they said. If you call your unbacked opinion a fact, then yeah, the facts are there. If you consider that facts need backing, there's a completely different set of facts looking at me, and I must say that they certainly don't involve bolstering your argument.
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Insanity Prevails (neocrs) (moderator) Site Contributor's Forum User Reviews Critiques and Help total posts: 14842 neopoints: 7043 GameGrep pts: 412 since: Feb 2003	Oct 12, 06 at 10:53pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Again, I told you that you get more than 4-5 exp per monster on Darkling woods. You get 20-30. No one knows the real formula, and if you found it, link me. You get up to 20/10 at Darkling woods. Meaning, you just need 5-4 kills each to level up. Literally on the verge of ROFL. Here's a copy of one of my EXP tests from the other thread: Kyle (14/Great Knight) vs Monster (15/Wight) 30+(3x35)-(3x34) 30+105-102 135-102 33 (33) Darkling Woods monsters are only around 20/6 at best (bosses and dragons aside). Even lvl 10 units are getting less than 33 on normal mode, and that is before hard mode EXP cut is factored in. As units level up they receive less and less EXP per kill. My ingame testing has in fact proved the formula correct to within 2 points difference. It's a excellent way of estimating EXP gains. Don't you see? I went ingame and testing the validity of the formula. Anyone else want to do this? Formula is here. Scroll down to point 25. Go into a game file. Use the formula to predict gained EXP. Compare it to actual EXP gain. If not on hard mode (which will require the value to be cut in half) the actual gains are going to be extremely close to the predicted gains. Fact. In the case where predicted EXP gain falls below 6 EXP, use this rough guide to determine predicted EXP gain (after all other calculations have been carried out): quote Between 6 and -9: 6 Between -10 and -19: 5 Between -20 and -29: 4 Between -30 and -37: 3 Between -38 and -44: 2 -45 and beyond: 1 Again, the actual gains and predicted gains are going to be very close. wins This message was edited by Insanity Prevails on Oct 12 2006. ------------------- General Legend of Zelda
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Eliwood the Slayer Neolithic total posts: 6646 since: Jul 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 11:02pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	Again, that formula was proven wrong, so it can't be right. THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD ANYMORE! walks off, steamed
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Insanity Prevails (neocrs) (moderator) Site Contributor's Forum User Reviews Critiques and Help total posts: 14842 neopoints: 7043 GameGrep pts: 412 since: Feb 2003	Oct 12, 06 at 11:08pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Eliwood the Slayer THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD ANYMORE! walks off, defeated Fixed. Please explain how the formula was proven wrong. By factoring in a min EXP gain just like there is a max EXP gain I've proven the formula to be accurate to within 2 points by literally going ingame and testing it. I even posted the characters/classes/levels and the formula results and actual results. Face it, you've lost and cannot support your statements with anything. ------------------- General Legend of Zelda
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TemplarSimon high on "N" total posts: 736 since: Sep 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 11:09pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Again, that formula was proven wrong, so it can't be right. WTF are you smoking? IP just agve you the numbers for the scenarios where minimum EXP gains interfere with the formula, and all the other instances have been proven right. quote THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD ANYMORE! walks off, steamed Then why is it that YOU continued the debate?
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Eliwood the Slayer Neolithic total posts: 6646 since: Jul 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 11:12pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Insanity Prevails quote Eliwood the Slayer THIS IS NOT A DEBATE THREAD ANYMORE! walks off, pissed Please explain how the formula was proven wrong. By factoring in a min EXP gain just like there is a max EXP gain I've proven the formula to be accurate to within 2 points by literally going ingame and testing it. I even posted the characters/classes/levels and the formula results and actual results. Your "facts" said that Ewan would get around 68 exp for killing that entombed. The link I gave you showed Ewan defeating an entombed gave him 100 exp, instead of 68. You've lost this and you are too lazy to even look at the link. Other's I pmed said it was wrong. Face it, you've lost and cannot support your statements with anything. I just did. WJC, and TS have no respect points. They should be pwned. quote TemplarSimon [quote]Again, that formula was proven wrong, so it can't be right. WTF are you smoking? IP just agve you the numbers for the scenarios where minimum EXP gains interfere with the formula, and all the other instances have been proven right. You just took my sentence. -20 respect points. Giving you a -20 for respect. WhereTF is your liquor? I just gave you proof that that formula was proven wrong.
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TemplarSimon high on "N" total posts: 736 since: Sep 2006	Oct 12, 06 at 11:19pm re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote Your "facts" said that Ewan would get around 68 exp for killing that entombed. The link I gave you showed Ewan defeating an entombed gave him 100 exp, instead of 68. You've lost this and you are too lazy to even look at the link. Other's I pmed said it was wrong. They're apparently wrong too, since each one forgot that bosses add 40 EXP. quote I just did. WJC, and TS have no respect points. They should be pwned. According to you. Honestly, I don't give a flying care about what you think of me. Your insults are futile. quote You just took my sentence. -20 respect points. Giving you a -20 for respect. That's not "your sentence," given that you don't have a backed copyright on it. quote WhereTF is your liquor? I just gave you proof that that formula was proven wrong. Why did you misplace your wi--OK, this is getting old. Anyway, your "proof" is factually flawed.
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Insanity Prevails (neocrs) (moderator) Site Contributor's Forum User Reviews Critiques and Help total posts: 14842 neopoints: 7043 GameGrep pts: 412 since: Feb 2003	Oct 13, 06 at 12:20am re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	While I would hate to side with EtS (I feel icky) he does provide a point. I tested this myself with my lvl 1 Druid (Ewan). Indeed the Entombed gives 100 EXP for the kill. However, the formula doesn't quite seem to match up. 30+(1x21)-(3x21)+60+40 30+21-63+60+40 51-63+60+60 -12+60+40 48+40 88 (100) My lvl 17 Great Lord Eirika got the following: 30+(1x21)-(3x37)+60+40 30+21-111+60+40 51-111+60+40 -60+60+40 0+40 40 (55) Brackets is actual gain. I must admit, there is a 12 point and 15 point difference. This oddity has only occurred thus far when comparing kills against the tower entombed (I have not tested against non-tower boss entombed yet nor against other bosses). Something is indeed wrong. I believe the fault lies in either the entombed bonuses (either its class value is different or its static bonus is) or the boss bonus value is different. The entire formula hasn't been disproved by any means. It has been shown to be perfectly valid against other monsters (Revenants, Wights, Gargoyles), so it appears to be specific to the Entombed. Also, unless the Darkling Woods stage is filled with many, many Entombed then 20/20 is still unproven. --------- For the purpose of testing I will add an additional 15 points to either Entombed or Boss Bonus (but not both at the same time) and will test this out. If anyone would be willing to experiment with this and test out different things (adding to the boss bonus for example) against other bosses and non-boss entombed too it will help to determine where the formula is failing in terms to the tower entombed. Update 1: Artur (14/Bishop) vs Monster (7/Entombed) - Not boss type 30+(1x27)-(3x34)+60 30+27-102+60 57-102+60 -45+60 15 (53) Difference: 38 Will continue to test this tonight. Update2: I have a theory that the Entombed bonus is in fact not static but another formula. Approx formula might be: ((Entombed Level x 1.9) x 1.9). Note: Entombed level includes previous levels. Thus, with this new formula replacing the static 60 we get: Eirika (17/Great Lord) vs Monster (1/Entombed) - Boss Type 30+(1x21)-(3x37)+((1.9x21)x1.9)+40 30+21-111+75.81+40 51-111+75.81+40 -60+75.81+40 15.81+40 55.81 (55) Artur (14/Bishop) vs Monster (7/Entombed) - Not boss type 30+(1x27)-(3x34)+((1.9x27)x1.9) 30+27-102+97.47 57-102+97.47 -45+97.47 52.47 (53) Thoughts? This message was edited by Insanity Prevails on Oct 12 2006. ------------------- General Legend of Zelda
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WJC no-stoppin-me-now total posts: 261 since: Sep 2006	Oct 13, 06 at 1:30am re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	I would think it most likely that the GFAQs passage wrongly assumed that Entombed have a Class Value of 1. I see no reason for them to not have the same Class Value of 3, considering that Revenants have that value. Of course, this will also require testing, which I don't have time for(I do have a life to attend to, and I'm currently working on the project of recording and averaging the stats of every enemy in the game at the moment, so if I get any spare time, that's probably where it's going). Good to see that EtS has finally stopped, though.
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Insanity Prevails (neocrs) (moderator) Site Contributor's Forum User Reviews Critiques and Help total posts: 14842 neopoints: 7043 GameGrep pts: 412 since: Feb 2003	Oct 13, 06 at 1:33am re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	Unfortunately it doesn't work. Let's take my Eirika battle above, only keeping the +60 and substituting 1 for 2. Class 2: 30+(2x21)-(3x37)+60+40 30+42-111+60+40 72-111+60+40 -39+60+40 21+40 61 (55) See? Class 2 alone shoots over the actual gain. Class 3 is going to be way too high. Likewise, the Artur battle, again at class 2: Artur (14/Bishop) vs Monster (7/Entombed) - Not boss type 30+(2x27)-(3x34)+60 30+54-102+60 84-102+60 -18+60 42 (53) Still too low. Now Class 3: Artur (14/Bishop) vs Monster (7/Entombed) - Not boss type 30+(3x27)-(3x34)+60 30+81-102+60 111-102+60 -1+60 59 (53) Overshoots by 6, bigger than differences shown in the proven tests. 1 or 2 difference is understandable. 6 is not. I'm sure my theory is valid but I will test it several more times and report all results. ------------------- General Legend of Zelda
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Eliwood the Slayer Neolithic total posts: 6646 since: Jul 2006	Oct 13, 06 at 1:50am re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	quote WJC I would think it most likely that the GFAQs passage wrongly assumed that Entombed have a Class Value of 1. I see no reason for them to not have the same Class Value of 3, considering that Revenants have that value. Of course, this will also require testing, which I don't have time for(I do have a life to attend to, and I'm currently working on the project of recording and averaging the stats of every enemy in the game at the moment, so if I get any spare time, that's probably where it's going). Good to see that EtS has finally stopped, though. No, I'm still here. Also, it looks like you don't want to help me, even though I'm correct.
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TemplarSimon high on "N" total posts: 736 since: Sep 2006	Oct 13, 06 at 1:58am re: Character Promotions-first post updated
	This still isn't relevant to the debate just yet. There aren't any Entombed bosses in the game save for Chapter 4.
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