quote

I'll grant that Amelia is more fun to train as a cavalier than as a knight because of the movement and swords. Plus, her battle sprite is cuter and you avoid the sillyness of that huge pink armor.

We don't give a flying care about how cute the sprite looks.

quote

However, I've trained Amelia many times and i can tell you she CAN max out strenght, skill and even defense as a general. Her growth rates are 40/40/30 respectively, so she can do it with the 47 level ups and 2 class changes that she gets. The class changes to knight and general both give her more strenght and defense, the two stats where she needs the most help.

40 and 30 growths are quite screwable. Averages, not your personal experiencesm are what matters. These averages show us that she does not cap Strength or Defense at 20/10, endgame level without abusing the Tower. Skill is insignificant to cap anyway; Amelia will have enough Skill for the entire game around 10/5/0 considering she has the Weapon Triangle. Great Knights also get a nice amount of Strength and Defense, as well.

quote

Paladin : She will be your best paladin, but the caps don't do justice to her potential.

Seth is the best Paladin; anyone else should be a Great Knight, and I'd make Seth a Great Knight if he wasn't a prepromote. Paladins are outright inferior to Great Knights.

quote

Great Knight : OK, but that makes her vulnerable to both armor-piercing and horse-killing weapons, the stat caps and promotion gains aren't as interesting as for a general, and the GK animation sucks... even the criticals.

Not only are the effective-Might weapons few and far between (you'd be lucky to find a dozen in the entire game equipped and such), but prepromotion she has WTA against 66% of those weapons and postpromotion she has WTA against all of them. Their accuracy isn't so high that they'll be hitting anyway given that Iron weapons and Silver Swords/Bows are really the only ones who can accomplish that on a regular basis. The latter two are entirely useless points to raise; I want the optimal training conditions for my underlevelled units, not a more interesting set of caps that Amelia fails to reach sans Speed and a better animation.

quote

General : Best caps, all melee weapons, best constitution, best promotion gains and a skill. For the record, the great shield skill activates 20% of the time for a level 20 general (equal to the unit's level). It seems much lower for Amelia because she dodges very often.

We know Great Shield's activation rate; however, with 20/10 being the endgame level for Hard Mode without abuse, the highest rate is 10% and it's even worse up until then.

quote

Super Recruit : Fun choice, but go for it only if you got seriously screwed in str and def and got great sp and sk as a recruit, cuz you'll get swordmaster stat caps (+1 in str). Body ring(s) required.

Super Recruit flat-out sucks compared to the other classes. A General will own a Super Recruit in the Link Arena and is better for Creature Campaign and a Great Knight has the same improved move until third-class promotion.

quote

Better stats AND better caps are worth sacrificing a few useless move points.

Move is not useless by any means. Your entire argument negating the General's Move disadvantage is that nuking your efficiency is OK. She doesn't even hit the caps you herald except her cruddy Speed cap, and the much greater efficiency helps with supports since she's keeping up with her support partners as well as clearing maps more efficiently and training Amelia easier.

quote

Besides, she's better in arena as General than as GK too...

I'll say it again: I only debate ingame usefulness. Creature Campaign and Link Arena are pointless battles of caps; you look at a character's class to determine who gets used, not their growths.Everyone has 25 Con, 15 Move, and capped stats, so what's the point of debating, say, L'Arachel against Gilliam? Gilliam clearly wins because of destructive caps whereas L'Arachel is screwed into pitiful caps pretty much everywhere, despite the fact that L'Arachel has much better growths. Joining time's also moot as well, and the enemies there not only all suck but take at least 30 - Res damage from half the units on your team (Bishops Moulder, Artur, Natasha, and Riev). Link Arena is more of a challenge due to the opposition not only not sucking but also being controlled by something that can reason, but it has very little tactical prowess necessary. The campaign is the only thing that requires tactics and gives growths and supports and joining time meaning.

Speaking of which...

quote

Training is absolutely NO concern in this game, so that shouldn't influence your decision at all...

It's far more efficient to bypass the Tower/Ruins/Skirmish and actually get somewhere in the campaign than to spam/abuse the Tower/Ruins/Skirmishes. Even if you do Tower, though, the Cavalier finishes up faster due to having higher Move.

quote

*is failing his reading homework*

could someone give me a quick review of peoples opinions and others counter opinions? cut details down as much as possible...

Uh...check page 4 for my opener and pages 4-5 for the starting counter. Either that, or jump in where we are right now: Cavalier Amelia vs Knight Amelia.

She doesn't reach any caps? Excuse me? Not according to ANGEL SWORD, your preferred source...According to it, she maxes POW, SPD, and LCK. so your argument is moot.

Seth is most definately not the best Paladin, seeing as he's beat significantly in SPD and SKL, and only mildly superior to Forde as a Paladin.

Even worse with Kyle, who will end up a few RES down but significantly higher everything else if he's a Paladin.

The only one inferior to Seth is Franz...who's also inferior to Forde and Kyle, based on stat averages by, as I am not using for you, ANGEL SWORD.

NO ONE, not me, not Super Frog, ever said that SUper Recruit was good. SF said it was fun, not good.

I did not use any armorslayer or horseslayer arguments so I don't have any need to address that.

The fact it, you suddenly change it to Cavalier vs. Knights when you are BEAT in the Generals. vs. GK argument. Well guess what, the point is moot because unpromoted units have the same caps, and it's pointless to pit them against each other...

The stat growths will be the SAME, perhaps offset by 1 or 2 both sides favor, so the point is moot. Why? Because Amelia's growths are the same, and caps of unpromoted units are the same. You have no argument here...

In game usefullness, Generals ARE better than Great Knights. You have other units (GK doesn't have the best move) if you're so concerned about movement, and Generals excell in EVERYTHING else.

quote

She doesn't reach any caps? Excuse me? Not according to ANGEL SWORD, your preferred source...According to it, she maxes POW, SPD, and LCK. so your argument is moot.

That's my source for seeing caps and such, since Eaichu doesn't have as much checking, but Eaichu uses averages, not the modes you're using. According to Eaichu, Amelia doesn't cap a thing.

quote

Seth is most definately not the best Paladin, seeing as he's beat significantly in SPD and SKL, and only mildly superior to Forde as a Paladin.

You didn't read. Seth's not the best because he's the strongets statistically; Seth's the best because he shoudld be the only Paladin in your army, as Great Knight > Paladin.

quote

Even worse with Kyle, who will end up a few RES down but significantly higher everything else if he's a Paladin.

I already showed you earlier that they're roughly even. Neither one is better.

quote

The only one inferior to Seth is Franz...who's also inferior to Forde and Kyle, based on stat averages by, as I am not using for you, ANGEL SWORD.

Haha no. Check Eaichu, the averages. Not the modes you get by taking growth rate sand multiplying them out; that's the most common occurence, but it doesn't take RNG-screwage/blessage into account. Franz is much better than Kyle and Forde; he doubles earlier or for more damage than those two (earlier than Kyle and for more damage than Forde), and he gets supports faster.

quote

NO ONE, not me, not Super Frog, ever said that SUper Recruit was good. SF said it was fun, not good.

Did I ever say anyone said so? I quoted them because they reminded me of the Super Recruit. I wasn't contesting their claim by any means.

quote

I did not use any armorslayer or horseslayer arguments so I don't have any need to address that.

OK.

quote

The fact it, you suddenly change it to Cavalier vs. Knights when you are BEAT in the Generals. vs. GK argument. Well guess what, the point is moot because unpromoted units have the same caps, and it's pointless to pit them against each other...

I was not beaten. Great Knight Amelia becomes so through Cavalier Amelia, and General Amelia becomes so through Knight Amelia. You can't just take the promoted class into account to see which route is better; if this had been Knight -> Great Knight vs Knight -> General, you'd have a point, but the Cavalier's (and thus the Great Knight's) training advantages outweigh the Knight's (and thus the General's) statistical advantages. Great Knights can also be a higher level because they have the Move to get to the action.

quote

The stat growths will be the SAME, perhaps offset by 1 or 2 both sides favor, so the point is moot. Why? Because Amelia's growths are the same, and caps of unpromoted units are the same. You have no argument here...

Yes I do, and I've been using it the entire debate: Cavalier Amelia's ease of training outweighs Knight Amelia's slight statistical advantage upon promotion to General. BTW, while I'm referencing the statistical leads, I'll point out what WJC said about Speed and such.

quote

In game usefullness, Generals ARE better than Great Knights. You have other units (GK doesn't have the best move) if you're so concerned about movement, and Generals excell in EVERYTHING else.

Caps that Amelia won't reach are like telling a poor man he can vote if he buys a multi-million house; the outcome is the same because of the impracticality of the event happening (Amelia using the higher caps -> poor man buying the house). Gilliam is more suited for the General class, and there are more tanks you can use (Ephraim, Gerik, Cormag, Kyle, Franz, etc) if you're so concerned about tanking.

Why did you suddenly change to different website after I started using it?

See, there's a link called "Average STats" on Angel sword, and it shows Amelia as maxing stats.

I see your point about SEth.

I still maintain the belief that Kyle is as a better GK because he maxes POW and comes close to SKL and SPD.

And training NEVER outweights stats. Tower. Don't give me crap about how you can't use it. It's a legit part of the game, so use it...

quote

However, I've trained Amelia many times and i can tell you she CAN max out strenght, skill and even defense as a general.

Theoretically, she *can*, but if she's not expected to, no weight should be placed on the possibility.

quote

She doesn't reach any caps? Excuse me? Not according to ANGEL SWORD, your preferred source...According to it, she maxes POW, SPD, and LCK. so your argument is moot.

Nah; the averages on Angel Sword are imprecise, and those particular averages are flat-out wrong(in regards to Amelia's Str, at least). Angel Sword *is* the most reliable site for concrete values such as base stats and class caps; but its averages are less than reliable, since those are values which do not exist in the game's coding(and thus cannot be ripped from it), and so they must be calculated. The most accurate FE8 average stats can be found here:

http://eaichu250.superbusnet.com/DT/fea.php?&game=8e

Oh, and you'll have to forgive me, since I stated that Amelia only caps Spd and Luck, when in fact she caps nothing according to this site. Either way, though, the point is the same; stat caps absolutely don't matter here.

quote

The only one inferior to Seth is Franz...who's also inferior to Forde and Kyle, based on stat averages by, as I am not using for you, ANGEL SWORD.

I'll copy & paste a passage I have saved on Franz, with a few modifications:

As far as the Cavaliers in general go.

Franz 20/20 Paladin

52.4 Hp
22.7 Str
21.1 Skl
23.7 Spd
17.2 Luck
17.5 Def
9.6 Res
11 Con

Forde 20/20 Paladin

54.9 Hp
21.4 Str
24.8 Skl
23.0 Spd
18.9 Luck
16.8 Def
11.5 Res
11 Con

Kyle 20/20 Paladin

55.0 Hp
24.5 Str
20.2 Skl
21.0 Spd
12.6 Luck
19.2 Def
8.6 Res
12 Con

As far as pure statistics go, the differences aren't very large. Franz has 2 less Str than Kyle(and it's on average 2 points away from the cap), and actually wins in Res(by 1 point) and Luck(by 4.6). Kyle has ~3 Hp and ~2 Def set against Franz's ~13 Dodge. Let's examine their durability.

Let us assume that they are facing an opponent with 100 Hit and 30 Atk. This enemy has 35(24.5% real) Hit against Franz and 48(46.08% real) Hit against Kyle. Franz dies in 4 Hits, Kyle in 5. On average, Franz's odds are survival after 14 rounds with this enemy are higher than Kyle's odds after 11 rounds.

So I Kyle loses to Franz in durability. This is before we go into Supports, either, a category which Franz dominates in(fast and practical Support with Seth, who is both an Anima Affinity and a solid unit).

Just for the record, let's compare Franz to Amelia.

Amelia 20/20 Paladin

46.2 Hp
20.8 Str
24.3 Skl
24.4 Spd
28.4 Luck
17.1 Def
14.0 Res
9 Con

Due to a large Luck lead, Amelia's stats are in fact stronger at this point; but if you throw that out for a moment, she wins only Skl and Res(the weakest stats) by significant amounts, and actually loses in Hp, Str, Def and Con. Decidedly unimpressive. Considering Franz's superior Supports and lack of Est syndrome(training Amelia is time-consuming and annoying, regardless of how it's done), I see no reason to bother with her.

Overall, I'd call Amelia the worst of the 4 Cavaliers, and I'd be inclined to say she's worse than Seth as well, while she probably beats Duessel. Among the other 3 Cavs, I favor Franz > the other two, and who's better between Forde and Kyle is a bit too close to call.

quote

The fact it, you suddenly change it to Cavalier vs. Knights when you are BEAT in the Generals. vs. GK argument.

I would like you to point out where I ever argued General vs Great Knight without bearing Cavalier vs Knight in mind.

quote

Well guess what, the point is moot because unpromoted units have the same caps, and it's pointless to pit them against each other...

This implies that stat caps are the only thing which matters, and that's a ludicrous idea at best. Cavalier's Swords give it +30 Dodge against enemy Axemen; that's *gasp* more than twice the Dodge advantage a capped SM has over a capped General(M). How can you claim this to be insignificant while hyping things like +1 Skl(read: +2 Hit/+1 Crit)?

quote

And training NEVER outweights stats. Tower. Don't give me crap about how you can't use it. It's a legit part of the game, so use it...

I would appreciate it if you would actually read my posts. Again:

quote

You mean using the Tower to train Amelia? Well, there are a few ways you can do that:

1. Only train her to LvL 10 Recruit, and then return to the campaign, in which case the Tower has no effect on her promotion.

2. Train her to the same LvL as everyone else and then return to the campaign, in which case about half of the unpromoted Levels are still left and her 2nd class is still relevant.

3. Train her to LvL 20 Knight or Cavalier, in which case only her 3rd class is relevant. By doing this, though, you are essentially abusing her, and you need to give a better reason for doing so than "so I can prove that General is a better class for Amelia."

Now, let us assume that you're doing #1 or #2(or better yet, not using the Tower at all). In this case, her 2nd class(Cavalier or Knight) is going to see use during the campaign. Cavalier is undeniably superior to Knight; 3 more Move, more Aid and an additional Weapon Type.

quote BOMBASTIC

And animations? Please. That's not an argument at all.
I'm pretty sure most serious players turn animation off.

Is there such a thing as a serious player? Do you think you're doing something serious when you're moving your little sprites around on your little gameboy???

quote SuperFrog

quote BOMBASTIC

And animations? Please. That's not an argument at all.
I'm pretty sure most serious players turn animation off.

Is there such a thing as a serious player? Do you think you're doing something serious when you're moving your little sprites around on your little gameboy???

Excuse me, but last time I checked, we were arguing on which character/promotion was SUPERIOR here, not which is BETTER LOOKING.

Idiots? Idiots? How the heck am I being an idiot? I posted what my favorite promotion choices were and got attacked by 3-4 others, most of whom have left; if anything, DS is not being an idiot either, as at least he's bothering to back up why he thinks the promotion choices are good.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't call me an idiot for defending myself.

And why would this be "LW" (I'd guess link wars or something) or "BS" (know what that is)? Isn't the point of a forum to discuss your thoughts on things?

quote Eliwood the Slayer

Apparently, an argument is on between four people. The two most idiots are TS and DL.

I won't hesitate to call LW or BS if you don't stop...

Dude, for the love of God, *bleep*. We're having a LOGICAL discussion that did not involve flaming or breaching the rules in ANY *bleep*ING WAY.

Go die, no one likes you, and your pathetically misguided and misdirected membrating isn't doing anything to change the situation.

If discussing the game is not allowed on the forum for the game, then Neo might as well cease to exist.

Your logic fails, and you're most likely gonna report this post just to prove your own inferiority. When defeated by logic, you run and try to hide the truth. Too bad, everyone sees right through you.

This message was edited by Dragonlord999 on Sep 28 2006.

quote Eliwood the Slayer

Apparently, an argument is on between four people. The two most idiots are TS and DL.

I won't hesitate to call LW or BS if you don't stop...

I have been callled

Eliwood the Slayer. What DL Said.

EDIT: I frogt 'Said'.

This message was edited by LighT WarrioR on Sep 28 2006.

so............... dang................ .confusing!!!!!!!!!! can't any of you shorten your posts?

'Fraid not. Lots of objections were raised originally, so there's like five debates going on simultaneously.

quote Eliwood the Slayer

Apparently, an argument is on between four people. The two most idiots are TS and DL.

I won't hesitate to call LW or BS if you don't stop...

If we are not allowed to discuss Sacred Stones on the *Sacred Stones* Board, then what exactly is the purpose of this forum?

quote WJC

quote Eliwood the Slayer

Apparently, an argument is on between four people. The two most idiots are TS and DL.

I won't hesitate to call LW or BS if you don't stop...

If we are not allowed to discuss Sacred Stones on the *Sacred Stones* Board, then what exactly is the purpose of this forum?

What does this comment have to do with anything?