Alright fellas, cut out the aggression. The originator of the post has a good point, and he is correct. In a real world, there would be many different animals. This is not the real world, you are correct in stating that. However, merely by stating to the originator that he is stupid because it's just a game only shows your ignorance. Do you really expect him to say "O rly? ObLiViOn is just teh game? omfg omfg no way nub!!!1"?

Don't assume anything while on the Internet, because you usually end up looking ignorant. Cover all of your bases before you make accusations.

Maybe in a few years, a complete ecosystem that completely envelopes the tropic levels of a specific biome will be created on a videogame. At that time, we will have the technology that can run it properly. I would love to see it, an entire world working together in unison. It's a great dream to shoot for, and I believe we are close to accomplishing that goal. How do you think games are improved? People see a game, and think to themselves, "Hey, this would be great if ____ was changed a little bit."

You can't say this wont happen, and you certainly can't say it's a stupid thing to ask. I think this kind of thing is coming, and in a big way.

Can anyone say Elder Scrolls V?

well, im just saying that to bring up things, that cant possibly be rendered by the masses, as deficiencies, seems kind of pointless. We all know how quickly gfx and animation and hardware are moving into the future. Its all in due time.

the original post sounded like a complaint that Oblivion wasnt thourough enough, whereas in comparison to all other games, Oblivion has raised the bar.

if you have a computer that is capable of rendering that kind of gfx to the point that it actually is a deficiency to you...then please, share your bankroll with me

"Actually what would be cool in future is an endangered species list. So much fine for killing trolls or ogres or Minataurs." ---Rex Mundi

You are the only person that thinks about this. The real world (earth) is far too complex to put into a video game, so if you expect Oblivion to be as detailed as Earth, you'll be waiting a while. All video games-ALL VIDEO GAMES-inprove performance by omitting things that most people don't care about. Your energy pyramid is one of those things.

quote Anonymous1

if you have a computer that is capable of rendering that kind of gfx to the point that it actually is a deficiency to you...then please, share your bankroll with me

A game developer, when questioned about how many people there would be in the game. He replied that there would be as many as necessary to the place believable as a place or
town. It there needed to be 500 more people, then there would be 500 more added.

I think they would have also applied that "concept of belief" to the animals, birds, fish, butterflies and fireflies, yet still keeping the game playable for the lower spec machines (commercial suicide not to IMO).

I think they have done a fine job. I have seen butterflies, as many as I would expect. Same with fireflies, and about as many fish as I would expect to see flip out of the water. Bears, wolves and rats, seem to be plenty of them. Didn't notice many birds though.

To me it was a believable enough environment. For some others, apparently not. I tend not to think too deeply about such concepts of the ecosystem in a fantasy game, anyway.

A dying world?
Well maybe the creatures from Oblivion aren't helping any.

But I found the game believable, certainly the people's expressions were, right down to the smallest
twitch.


This message was edited by Sitruc on May 22 2006.

quote Rex Mundi

Ever notice how very little actual life there is in the Elder Scrolls games? In fact there isn't enough to support the carnivores! Sure the herbivores have grass and berries, but there is precious little protein for the rest. And very few herbivores. Even the bears are small due to malnutrition.
There are virtually no fish in the seas and rivers. There are no birds in the sky. No squirrels, chipmunks and mice. Rats though. No earthworms. No ladybugs.
What happened? What horrible apocalypse befell this world?
But the more important question is will the world survive?
There just isn't enough life to maintain the numbers, however small, that exist today. The lack of fish alone really tells just how desolate and devastated the world is.
As goes the sea so goes the land.

Any attempt at intelligent discussion needs to have a disclaimer for some.

"Do not ever reply with: It's only a game"

Does anyone seriously think that there is someone on this board that does not realize this? Do they think the statement holds any meaning or adds anything to any discussion? Far too often you see people focus on the literal words while ignoring what they very well know the speaker/writer means. It's no different than walking past a stranger fixing a flat tire and asking, "Got a flat eh?" What they MEAN is, "I dont know you and would like to know if you are friendly or a threat to me. I would like you to provide me with some verbal clue as to if you would like me to help you out since I can see you're in distress." That's quite a mouthfull. So how about instead we let fly with some simple salutation like, "got a flat?" and see where it leads. Yes, we all realize it's only a game thank you. Can you now add to the discussion please?

My field of study is primarily Ecological Economics and Linguistics. My education and experiance has me seeing things through a certain lens, just as someone else whose field may be health care or agriculture would. This applies to life in general, as well as entertainment such as Oblivion.

So if you're a corn farmer or nutritionist, you might see certain flaws (at least what you see as flaws) that no one else would regarding food in Oblivion. Likewise, someone well read in environmental issues might see the "flaw" of disproportionate trophic levels and wonder what might be done.

They're not complaining, they're just wondering and deserve polite, constructive feedback.

As I replied to another thread, there was a time when gamers asked, "Why cant I remove my arrows from a dead creature?" and the response "it's only a game dude" was not then, nor ever will be a meaningful answer.

Boards such as this, besides offering hints and walkthroughs, provide an opportunity to ask questions. We can now remove a percentage of our arrows from mud crabs. More and more real world physics are part of games like Oblivion and it is only natural for gamers to demand that the bar be raised with each installment. But only those things that we (the market) care about.

We live in a world in serious need of change. Anthropogenic global warming is a threat to Billions who live along coast lines. Species diversity is dissapearing in virutally every ecosystem. We have poisoned much of our limited drinking water supplies with salination or chemicals. This is not apocolypic ranting. It's peer reviewed science. These topics are becoming increasingly important to our daily lives and so are reflected in an increasing amount of our entertainment. "The Day After Tomorrow" was released in 2004 and not 1960 for a reason. No one knew, nor cared much in 1970. Environmental issues pop up more and more in our television, movies, books, and maybe even one day in our video games.

So what do we need to help suspend disbelief? What would be nice to have that might not add anything to the game per se? Given that computers are only so powerful? Oblivion would not have ran on ANY comptuter five years ago so we need to think in terms of what we will have on our desktops in 2011, not 2006. I have more RAM on my PC today than my old PC had harddrive space. I find that hilarious.

I agree, technological issues are a limiting factor. So what do we want to include? How about a chamber pot under every bed? That would not have sucked RAM or framerate but would have filled in a minor missing detail.

How about a simple algorithm to mimic market activity so that when a merchant has 30 sets of iron greaves, they refuse to buy anymore from you? Sales? Another detail that would not suck RAM or framerate. How about just SOME life in the rivers and sea? I'm not asking for much... just an occasional fish, starfish, or seaweed. Something more than just oysters and rocks? Not a complete reef system, just something that helps with immersion. (get it? immersion? underwater? Damn I'm punny)

How about a quest line... someone whose cows are getting killed and hire you to discover why. This leads to finding out that trolls have had their traditional food source removed and so they had to substitute. Intricate plot lines could be drawn. Environmentaly themed quests.

A guest posetd all that ?!
I still dont see why there needs to be all that stuff you see it first time and go "cool" but then never think of it again

quote GrooTheWanderer

Any attempt at intelligent discussion needs to have a disclaimer.....Intricate plot lines could be drawn. Environmentaly themed quests.

Frankly Groo I would rather they didn't try and explain the lack of smaller animal life. It leaves the door open in 2011 to acctually add that life as the computers are more capable of rendering that life with out killing the frame rate.

Your right we do percieve things through the eyes of our own personal knowledge. And I and A1 working in the IT sector see the huge acheivements of the games. Yet at the same time still understand the limitations of the technology.

And honestly your not really going to notice things like birds, bugs, and other small animals during 90% of the game. For the most part you are going to be worried about theless than freindsly Minotar chasing you. Or the horde of Goblins running over the hill. And the small creatures that are little more than eye candy most of the time are just going to annoy you as they slow the system down. Were it included in this version of the game we would be hearing the exact opposite question from someone. "Why is there so much damn life in the game, when it just slows it down?"

adding extra things like the mini-quests you mentioned and a chamber pot in the bedrooms, would be more realistic...and you are right, not that taxing either. but they had to draw the line somewhere. granted, the MOVING objects like the deer and fish and stuff like that would tax a slower system into crashing...the more imobile stuff that has to be rendered when you character turns in a diferent direction can have the same effect, whether it be people, bedpans, trees...ect.

after reading abit on morrowind, based off of my findings it seems as if they "dumbed up" oblivion so more people would buy it...and i think that they kept that goal when deciding how much the details should mimic real life. i still say that its ground breaking, but i also say that you can kinda see the marketability as well.

i think what would solve this, and i say this without the knowledge behind creating games, would be a "realism" setting. if you actually have a power system that is capable of said additions, then turn the realism up and get to watch the extra fish in the water, or the added bedpans and other items...if not then keep it where it is at. just a thought though, i doubt it would ever work...it'd probably make a 5gb game turn into a 20gb game.

I think the adjustment would have to be more specific than "realism". It would likely have to be something along the lines of wildlife density. Kind of like the grass draw distance slider. The higher the setting the denser and more "realistic" the wildlife seems.

Realism can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Better to be specific. But you know if they were going to include things like chamber pots, then people would be asking why your character never needs to use them. Or better still why your character never needs to eat. You can just keep raising the bar or realism if you want. But there has to be some limits. After all we do want these games to actually go gold at some point.

quote beeballer10

oh my god how sad are all you people thinking about the wildlife in a *bleep*ING GAME, get a real life!

Focusing on the real world things for a moment that just add realism to the game. They are there to an extent as I remember it. Scales, weights for the scales, paintbrush, inkwell, quill, parchment paper (though maybe there is a function for that one somewhere), broom, fork, pickax? rake? There are probably others that I've left out.

As for chamber pots, I haven't noticed any, but maybe I am taking too literally the apparent middle age time period, because of castles and armoured Imperials in this fantasy
game. So OK they may have missed some chamber pots and a few other things, maybe it will be corrected in the next patch, along with whatever is native to other countries where this game is played and their view of what reality is.

Aiming to suspend disbelief in a game where when speaking to a person, you are limited to only two or three phrases and subjects, and the same with any follow up phrase. To accept that situation, you have already accepted suspension of disbelief.

But I believe they have made a fair stab at doing realism elsewhere for life as we have known it to be .... apart from the other worldly creatures.

theres like 2000 quests.... the graphics are amazing..... the world is huge.... what else do you want? they would have had to extend it onto a second dvd and jack up the price, and you would need at least 2 gig to process everything going on, and it would take up alot more hard drive space. considering most of the places with no life have nothing to do with quests anyway, i like it the way it is. besides being bombarded with wildlife when im trying to find a quest cavern or something on horseback is annoying as hell. damn trolls are just as fast as my shadowmere