Speed.

I'm probably gonna get a smack in the...uh, browser...for this, but I'm starting to doubt whether or not Dugtrio really has a place in OU anymore. Arena Trap, yeah, but other than things that are x4 weak to Ground and are slower, like Heatran(and he's often used with Choice Scarf, allowing him to OUTRUN Duggy) he doesn't kill much. Everybody uses Bold/max Defense Bliss with some SA EVs, this variety being able to survive Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake and also being able to slaughter it with an Ice Beam. Tyranitars with some HP EVs can survive a Choice Banded hit and strike back incredibly hard, and I've found more defensive variants to be increasingly common.

Duggy also has to deal with the constant fear of Pursuit being used when stuck using a bad move against hard-hitting users like Tyranitar, Weavile and Heracross. For all three of these, Pursuit can OHKO a max-health Duggy as it leaves. The obvious solution would be to use Life Orb, but then his Attack is so low, he can't do enough damage to anything to even be called a revenge killer.

Another factor in my doubt is that Dugtrio isn't used as much at this point. If one were to look on Shoddy, they would find that for unweighted usage in the month of January, he scored 45th most used, behind BLs such as Ninjask, Mamoswine and Zapdos. It should also be noted that Magnezone has been used more than him in recent times, and that thing isn't exactly on every team.

Obviously, Dugtrio's abilities are way too broken for the likes of UU, but sending him to BL wouldn't be a tragedy.

*ducks and covers*

I'm pretty sure Duggy is still faster than Scarftran. Have to check that.
Also, I think Duggy can take an unboosted HP Ice from Raikou, which is awesome. That aside, you may be right.

Nope, not even Jolly Dugtrio outspeeds a Modest Scarftran. Dugtrio hasn't been seeing too much use when I was last playing Shoddy though. Even on my team with 4 ground weaknesses, Dugtrio is only a threat to a weakened Tyranitar and a Jirachi without a sub.

I'm in agreement with Fishpaste about the Dugtrio point. I'd also like o point out that Zapdos is seemingly very common. Seriously, last time I was on Shoddy 4/6 teams had a Zapdos, and it's more common that a few OUs like Tangrowth (Who should be BL tbh), Heracross (Who has lot a lot of popularity due to the massive Gliscor useage lolz) and Raikou.

And so the cycle goes.

i understand wobuffet being uber, bu wynaut? he come be dis craziness? i wouldnt expect to last for 1 hit and 1 max if trained properly

quote WiseLugia

And so the cycle goes.

Thats what happens with new members I suppose =]

Well I don't believe you Shoddy arguement holds water. Mamoswine and Ninjask are popular pokemon. The first being THE only bulky Ice type (ice is the new ground I suppose) and Ninjask being the best baton passer. Alone they aren't so hot and need specialized team.

Why would Dugtrio switch agaisnt T-tar and Weavile? If all they use is Pursuit, unless they are carrying choice band (which they might) Dugtrio can land two Earthquakes full healthed on T-tar and one on a weavile that only does pursuit (at full health.)

Also Blissey can't OHKO Dugtrio unless it spends a crazy amount of Sp.Atk EVs and Dugtrio should only be used in Revenge situations it can OHKO.

The point of revenge killing is to kill pokemon who aren't at full health. A lot of your arguements are also applicable to Weavile. Ice Shard doesn't OHKO all dragon Dancers, so should it be bumbed down? What if Heracross is carrying a choice scarf? Ice Punch doesn't OHKO physical walls like Donphan... See bringing up what counters it isn't enough for a tier decision.

If it's OU vs. BL, frequency is all that matters. We probably really should set a standard there.

Regice > Mamo tbh. >=#

quote Scipex

Even on my team with 4 ground weaknesses, Dugtrio is only a threat to a weakened Tyranitar and a Jirachi without a sub.

Last time I checked Jirachi could survive with like 64 Defense EVs, and OHKO back with Zen Headbutt. Obviously, some amount of attack is invested, but still leaves some for HP and Speed.

My friends bought Pokemon Red/Blue for the lulz of it. I found my copy, read up on some game mechanics, and am going to proceed to 6-0 them. lollol Thunderwave Wrap Dragonite.

Dont forget Amnesia, thats pretty much 2 Calm minds back then

Magmorter BL? UU last i checked, why the change?(unless im wrong)

quote Kanon_fan 06

Dont forget Amnesia, thats pretty much 2 Calm minds back then

Magmorter BL? UU last i checked, why the change?(unless im wrong)

He's been BL for a little while. He's ridiculously overpowered in UU, without the Stealth Rocks, Sandstream and Garchomps keeping him down. He's pretty lame in BL, but he's still too broken in UU.

quote Illegit

quote WiseLugia

And so the cycle goes.

Thats what happens with new members I suppose =]

Well I don't believe you Shoddy arguement holds water. Mamoswine and Ninjask are popular pokemon. The first being THE only bulky Ice type (ice is the new ground I suppose) and Ninjask being the best baton passer. Alone they aren't so hot and need specialized team.

Why would Dugtrio switch agaisnt T-tar and Weavile? If all they use is Pursuit, unless they are carrying choice band (which they might) Dugtrio can land two Earthquakes full healthed on T-tar and one on a weavile that only does pursuit (at full health.)

Also Blissey can't OHKO Dugtrio unless it spends a crazy amount of Sp.Atk EVs and Dugtrio should only be used in Revenge situations it can OHKO.

The point of revenge killing is to kill pokemon who aren't at full health. A lot of your arguements are also applicable to Weavile. Ice Shard doesn't OHKO all dragon Dancers, so should it be bumbed down? What if Heracross is carrying a choice scarf? Ice Punch doesn't OHKO physical walls like Donphan... See bringing up what counters it isn't enough for a tier decision.

I'm not a new member. This is a multi account and I have been around since 04.

The point in my bringing up Zapdos and Mamoswine is that they are BL, and yet Dugtrio remains OU even though it is used less than these two. If the two tiers are based upon usage, should Dugtrio not become a BL as well?

The arguments do not hold against Weavile because there isn't a great thing like the underpowered Life Orb vs. Pursuit rape situation keeping it down, and more importantly, it is in the top 10 most OU pokemon at the moment, and there is no sense putting it in BL. Dugtrio ranked lower than plenty of BLs and is only 45 on the list. Do you see Dugtrio very commonly?

More about that problem, Dugtrio can easily get caught in a bad move because of its tendency to use Choice Band. It is very prone to dying after doing its job. If it's just killed a Breloom with Aerial Ace, it's now stuck with that move against Tyranitar. It can now be ruined with Pursuit. It could've just killed an Alakazam with Sucker Punch. It's now stuck with that move against Weavile. Pursuit. Stuck in the same Sucker Punch against Hera? Pursuit. Life Orb does not solve this problem, because with its base 80 Attack, it now has trouble killing things it could easily fell before. Tyranitar can survive an Earthquake and kill it with...well, just about ANY move. And it's not hard to tell if it's banded or not. It's the recoil.

Another main problem with Dugtrio(which is very important at this moment) is the fact that in this era, if you will, of the metagame, people are putting Choice Scarf on just about everything. Dugtrio's high Speed isn't nearly as sacred as it was in the past. It's not as confident when switching into Heatran, because it could be running right into a Scarfed one that can outrun and murder it.

Dugtrio is obviously not useless. It's known to destroy strategies and annoy the hell out of teams by killing off their weakened sweepers. However in this era of constant Weavile/Tyranitar use, and the constant Choice Scarf use, Dugtrio is not as useful as it has been in the past. The metagame, as WL has put, is cyclistic, and in the future, it will most likely find use for itself once more. But at the moment, it should be put into BL.

This message was edited by Fishpaste on Feb 22 2008.

Still not convinced with the popularity argument for tier usage. Blissey is the overused pokemon but its counters are in every team.

Ranked 60th on that list is Tangrowth, 63rd is Raikou and at 64th is Slowbro. Honestly we know how great those pokemon are but Ninjask, Ambipom, Zapdos and Vaporeon who are all inferior but used twice as much.

So, the issue about counters doesn't ever stop people's using pokes. What stops people from using pokemon is their opinion of the pokes. Dugtrio is unpopular compared to Zapdos but its still better.

I believe that Slowbro and Tangrowth should be BL as well, regardless of how epic they are. Especially Bro, he's not common at all. This is about usage, and Dugtrio doesn't cut it right now. However, things get used a lot BECAUSE they're superior to other things. A hypothetical argument about Luvdisc being used constantly all of a sudden and being sent to OU doesn't work, because the fact of the matter is that it would never happen. Salamence is useful, so it's used a lot. However, people counter things that are used a lot. Blissey's counters are on every team BECAUSE it's OU, not the other way around.

These counters to Dugtrio aren't what will keep him down forever, and they don't downgrade him as a pokemon. They're just exceedingly common in this day and age, and therefore he's not overused because people don't find him to be the most useful thing to revenge kill with all of these Scarfers, Pursuit-users and priority moves. Tangrowth is also not as common in the same way, because the metagame is currently swarming with Heatrans and Togekiss. It's not a bad pokemon, but when a new age comes, it will be more useful.

If Dugtrio goes into BL, there is no doubt that he'll eventually go back up to OU when people find him to be of more use, just as Tangrowth will and Aerodactyl will. But for now, I don't think he's suitable for that tier.

This message was edited by Fishpaste on Feb 22 2008.

I've noticed a small trend on this thread.
The tiers should be based on usage and power.
The BL tier is there because the Pokemon there while suitable for OU are too strong for UU. The OU tier should be more of a threat list if you may. While the NU tier consists of Pokemon that are too weak for UU.

I may be new here, but I'm very knowledgeable on the tiers, and know what I'm talking about.