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Cloud737
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Nov 04, 09 at 4:27pm
Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

Hi,

I'm launching an app I made called Oracle of Maiya. Basically, it's a program designed to help store your Personas in a database and help you (tremendously, I hope) with fusions, and it works with Persona 3, Persona 3 FES and Persona 4 (and the soon-to-be-released Persona 3 Portable and, if the fusion mechanics don't change much, for Persona 5, 6, 7 and maybe even the whole series from now on, even if it will need a little tweaking). For those that do (or want to do) a lot Persona fusion planning (instead of the usual random fusing) to obtain precisely what powerful Personas they want, I really hope this program will be a boon to them.

Please visit and bookmark the project's home page, and remember to visit regularly, as there will be lots of updates for the program in the days to come, and I hope there will also be lots of discussions there about the features you, the users, would desire. I'll be adding progress updates on a weekly (if not daily) basis there (or at least how often I can - I have a busy life from time to time). For now, stay tuned for the blog, forum and twitter-like micro-blogging features which will be added soon.

For those that can't find their way around the site:

quote Cloud737
The site is the project's home page on SourceForge.net. It hosts both the source code (for the really curious) as well as the executable program and related files (see the big "Download Now") button.

Bellow the project's name (Oracle of Maiya) is a navigation tabs. Click on any tab to navigate on the page (note: clicking the "Develop" tab will bring up more hidden tabs where the source code and other more complicated stuff is. The "Forum" tab also appears after you click the Develop tab (don't ask me why), so you should explore that a bit, I guess. Soon, there will also be a "Blog" and a micro blogging tab, along with others (as soon as I finish spamming all Persona 3 boards on the internet with my thread ).
One last thing I forgot to mention:

I know I asked you all to participate in the discussions (and maybe even submitting bugs and commenting about them) on the project's page, but I forgot to mention that you need to register before you can do that. Sorry about that, I can't do anything about it, and I would really appreciate it if you'd take your time and go out of your way to contribute to this project. After all, it's all for you!

Now, this is version 1.0 of my program. I'm sorry I don't have anything better to present at the moment, but I really wanted to get a bare-bones version out as fast as possible. Currently, it can only do normal spread fusions, but it already works for P3, P3 FES and P4. The next version will have triangle spread fusions and will be able to store your (evolved) Personas in a database (which I will call a user profile from now on, to distinguish it from the database for base Personas, skills, elements, etc.). If you want to see an alpha version of what's to come (currently, I'm thinking of calling this v1.5 when its released), please check here.

I'm curious, what do you all think of this? What are your opinions in regards to the program? You can either sound off here or (preferably, since it ever won't be deleted) on the project's page (after I set up the forum).

Remember to bookmark the project's home page and visit regularly! Let's try and make this one hell of a fan program the gaming community has never seen!

Update: The forum (no registration required; Path from homepage: Develop -> HostedApps -> phpBB) and micro-blogging[/URL] (registration required; Path from homepage: Develop -> HostedApps -> Laconica) features are now online!

PS: Sorry for cross-posting this on the Persona 3 FES and Persona 4 boards as well, but it's relevant to both those games and I really want as much coverage as possible. If a mod still wishes to enforce the rules, then please leave THIS thread open and close the rest, while editing my first post to redirect others to this thread (e.g.: "Thread closed (multiple threads). Please visit THIS THREAD to discuss from now on"). And please don't punish me!

I would also appreciate a sticky, but I'm not putting my hopes up.

PS2: There may be some erroneous results with some fusion combinations in P3 (not P3 FES) and P4. The program itself is fine, and if it happens it's because I've written the database files in hurry to get this out quickly (you try writing 200 KB text files in one day!). If you happen to find such a result, please report this to me and I'll post the updated package as well as the database files as separate downloads on the project's page.

Also, please note that the "Stats Sum" and "Total Skills" columns in the grids might display wrong info for P3 most of the time, and be totally inaccurate for P4. That's also because of the same reason mentioned above (basically, I just copied the P3 FES database for P3 and P4 and just edited the names of the Personas and their levels to insure that at least the fusion result is correct, though some inaccuracies in levels and Persona names, as well as Arcana fusion combination results, might have slipped).

PS3: Thank you for reading this long thread! And again, remember to bookmark the project's home page and visit often, please! It would be really disappointing to see that very few people care, if at all.

Below is my old post here, before editing. I'll be keeping it for consistency and coherency.

quote Cloud737 (old post)
Hi,

To put it short for those without much patience: I'm making a Persona fusion helper and database program called "Oracle of Maiya" (hint, hint ) that would work with Persona 3, Persona 3 FES and Persona 4 (and possibly Persona 5 if the fusion mechanics don't change much). In short, this program would store all your Personas in a database and will help you determine the fusion result (normal spread, triangle spread and special fusions) of the Personas you have, and even suggest fusions you might want to do (in future versions).

This is basically a hobby project of mine in Delphi, and I'm doing it because I'm in need of one and figured others would too. Besides, it's great fun to program (1) and learn Delphi (2) while working on something I like (3). 3 great things in 1, eh?

Right now, I'm about halfway through for an initial release. You can download the program and see for yourself here (sorry, I only made a P3 database for now). [Author note: link removed due to Neoseeker forum limitations on URL per post for new users. See "check here" link above for the file]

I know it's a little late (P3 and P4 were released a long time ago, and this project also started in October 2008), but cut me some slack - I've had issues to deal with in real life, as well as lack of motivation sometimes. Now, however, I'm fully dedicated to it and quite enthusiastic to finish it without delays.

The program so far can do normal spread fusions quite well, and I'm underway implementing the Compendium part (registering your evolved Personas and storing them in a database) and then the triangle spread fusions.

I wanted to announce this here since I thought this is the best place to get coverage by fans. So, what do you think about the idea? Would you like something like this? Would you be willing to help the project by making suggestions, giving opinions and maybe even some non-programming contributions (like making icons and splash screen images for it)?

I will do this project regardless of how much support I get, but, of course, more support means more motivation. Also, it will be free and open source, meaning everyone will be able to see and modify the source code, as I believe strongly in it. The program may look not worth it now, but I assure you I intend to make this program the best that ever was for the Persona series (any game in it, as long as the fusion mechanics are at least similar to P3 and P4).

Like I said, the program supports both P3, P3 FES and P4 (and maybe even P5, if the mechanics don't change) by loading all Persona data and some fusion mechanics information (the rest is hard-coded into the program) from a "database" (it's not a database per se, since you'll be able to open it with a word editor and see the text, but I think it's best this way since users will be able to modify and create their own databases, maybe even for games that aren't in the Persona series but that have similar mechanics). When P5 comes out, I'll do a database for that too if the fusion mechanics are the same as P3 and P4. If not, I'll tweak my program where possible to accommodate that flexibility/change in mechanics or, if the changes are substantial, probably make a new program from the ground up for it.

So, what do you think about this? What are your opinions about this program?

PS: Can I also make another thread in other sections (like in the P3FES and P4 sections, since it relates to it as well)? I would really appreciate it if I can do this so that it gets more coverage.

PS2: Thanks for reading this very long thread!
This message was edited by Cloud737 on Nov 08 2009.

This message was edited by Cloud737 on Nov 09 2009.


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Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Program
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Flippy
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Nov 05, 09 at 12:20pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application


I guess it's ok.

Oracle of Maia, nice one lol. =3



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Cloud737
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Nov 05, 09 at 6:09pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

Finally, some feedback! I was beginning to get depressed, but I guess there isn't much activity on the Persona boards on the internet, since the games were released a long time ago.
Oh well, I guess it'll get more coverage with the release of Persona 3 Portable... or not, since it's portable (i.e.: no computer close-by).

Thanks! For those that don't know, the name is a reference to Persona 2, where the Oracle of Maiya was a central part of the story (or so I heard, I haven't played it yet, but the name stuck to me). Also, it fits great as the name of my program since it'll be like asking the oracle what fusions you should do, and what does what.


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Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Program
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Holywhippet
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Nov 05, 09 at 10:30pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

Honestly I'm not sure if it's worth your time. There are a lot of combinations to cover - and Persona 3, FES and 4 all have slightly different fusion results. There are a lot of different Persona's so there will be a lot of permutations to cover in your database.

On top of that, some Persona's can be made better than stock standard by creating them with particular skills through inheritance. So recommendations might be a tricky proposition.

It's also likely to be a pain to jump on a computer to enter your Persona details and find out what fusions you can make. There aren't that many personas that I simply must have - and for those that are must haves I can just jump online and find out what fusion is required.
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Cloud737
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Nov 06, 09 at 2:11pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

quote Holywhippet
Honestly I'm not sure if it's worth your time. There are a lot of combinations to cover - and Persona 3, FES and 4 all have slightly different fusion results. There are a lot of different Persona's so there will be a lot of permutations to cover in your database.
Well, I'm not going to store all Persona fusion results, that would be enormous (Cartesian product: 173x173 possible combinations in P3 alone, where there are 173 Personas). Instead, I'm going to have the application calculate the fusion results based on the fusion mechanics/rules (thanks to GameFAQs user Arthellinus for the guides), as even the game doesn't store those combinations in a database, but calculates the results on the spot.
Thus, I don't need to store all possible fusion combinations (that would be enormous for P3 alone, let alone adding support P3 FES, P4 and P3 Portable, and maybe even P5), and instead have to focus on just making a database of available Personas for that game (and the skills available).

As you can see from the alpha version I posted, the program can already calculate normal spread results quite easily, displaying the fusion results between the first Persona you selected and all other Personas in the game. I've also implemented triangle spread fusion calculation, but have to work on registering/storing your evolved Personas into your own user profile and implement the interface for triangle spread before I can actually use the code for that.

quote Holywhippet
On top of that, some Persona's can be made better than stock standard by creating them with particular skills through inheritance. So recommendations might be a tricky proposition.
I've thought about inheritance, and I want to include that too in future versions. So yes, recommendations will cover skill inheritance too, and this is possible because, like I said, the program won't store fusion combinations, but calculate them instead.

quote Holywhippet
It's also likely to be a pain to jump on a computer to enter your Persona details and find out what fusions you can make. There aren't that many personas that I simply must have - and for those that are must haves I can just jump online and find out what fusion is required.
Yes, I've thought about that too, so instead of having to input your Persona details each and every time you want to know how you can fuse them, you just enter them once (and update its stats later as it evolve) and then the program will save those details to your user profile and load them from that file when you open the program again. It really is impractical to enter your Persona details each time you open the program, and triangle spread fusion actually take into account the ACTUAL level of your Personas (not base level, i.e.: the one the Persona starts with, before applying Social Link bonuses), and thus you have to enter all of your Personas all over again, unless of course you want the fusion combinations to be calculated with stock Personas (i.e.: unleveled).
So, in short, you should just be able to hop onto the app, update a few stats for the Personas you leveled in the meantime, and then click "Give me suggestions" and it'll calculate them right away with all the Personas (leveled) you have in your user profile, so the amount of work you have to do each session will be minimal.

I would love to make it even simpler than that, but I'm afraid there's nothing else I can do. Reading save data from a memory card is too complex to program (talking to the PS2, hoping no anti-piracy or other stupid protection stops me from just reading the memory card, dumping the memory card data and decrypting the data; you'll probably have to have a modded PS2, so you can run a homebrew to let the PC communicate to the PS2, or you'd have to dump the memcard contents yourself if the former is not an option, both of which aren't very practical or user-friendly) and the user must insure his PS2 is linked up to the PC somehow, or at least be able to transfer data from the PS2 or memcard to a memory stick and then copy it into his PC (not to mention that you must ensure every time that you save before you do a fusion, otherwise the stats on those saves don't correspond with the ones you currently have).

I'm sorry I haven't specified all this before, but my post is already too big that it might discourage users to read it all, and I thought programming specifics was all but what people were looking for to read.

I don't really think this program is a waste of my time. I'm really enjoying programming it and learning Delphi in the meantime. Besides, I'm in need of this program myself, so at the very least it isn't completely useless.

I'll most probably have a project opened on SourceForge by tomorrow, so the program will have a permanent home page. The first version of the program (with just normal spread fusions calculation capabilities, pretty much like what you see now in the alpha app I posted, but without all the clutter) will also be posted tomorrow, so stay tuned!

This message was edited by Cloud737 on Nov 06 2009.


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Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Program
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Holywhippet
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Nov 08, 09 at 10:07pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

I wouldn't consider it to be a waste of time - as a learning experience for programming it's not a bad idea.

It's possible to get save files from the PS2 provided it's modchipped. There is a free program that can copy files via a USB memory stick. Of course, you'd need to decipher how the save file format works.
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Cloud737
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Nov 08, 09 at 11:09pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

Amen to that! Plus, it's really fun!

Are you referring to uLaunchELF? Yes, I've known and used it for quite some time, but deciphering it is a real pain, especially since each game uses it's own format for save games.
Besides that, there's too much complexity for the end user for this to really be practical. First he has to have the console chipped, then he has to get the program, then he has to remember to save every time before he wants to do a fusion, then he has to reset the console and boot the app, and then finally transfer it to the PC.
I don't think many users will find that easy and painless...

I see you are quite experienced about tech and programming. Are you a programmer by any chance?


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Holywhippet
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Nov 08, 09 at 11:14pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

quote Cloud737
Amen to that! Plus, it's really fun!

Are you referring to uLaunchELF? Yes, I've known and used it for quite some time, but deciphering it is a real pain, especially since each game uses it's own format for save games.
Besides that, there's too much complexity for the end user for this to really be practical. First he has to have the console chipped, then he has to get the program, then he has to remember to save every time before he wants to do a fusion, then he has to reset the console and boot the app, and then finally transfer it to the PC.
I don't think many users will find that easy and painless...

I see you are quite experienced about tech and programming. Are you a programmer by any chance?
Yes, uLaunchELF is what I meant. I used it the last time I played Persona 3 FES. I couldn't work out where I'd saved my new game+ so I downloaded one and transferred it over.

Yeah I'm a programmer, I mainly work in Visual Basic .NET, but I've a passing familiarity with Java and have worked with Pascal, ADA and C a bit in the past.

There are adapaters which let you plug a PS/PS2 save card into a PC via USB but I suspect it's not worth it.

I've no idea how the Persona saves work so it could be a lot of trial and error to decipher the format. Simplest method would be to save, change most/all of your personas then save to a different slot. Compare the differences. Of course that assumes they aren't compressing the save data.
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Cloud737
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Nov 08, 09 at 11:28pm
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

Aren't most downloadable save games in Gameshark or CodeBreaker format? How did you manage to copy it using uLaunchELF (since I've also been thinking of doing this, but haven't researched much).
I mainly use uLaunchELF to back up my save games to my computer (and free up my memcard) and restore them later when I need them. Extremely useful, that app.

I thought you were a programmer! Hats off to ya, my fellow comrade!

Well, judging by the folders in my PS2 saves backup folder on my PC, each game does things differently, as each has it's own files (some have less, some more) with different names. Thus, I take it, save games on the PS2 don't have much of a standard format (because it would also be too limiting), so each game implements its own.

Haha, if I were to take that path, experimenting with the differences in save game files, by the time I would have discovered how to do decipher the save game files for only ONE game, I could have already gotten to version 4.0 with my program.
If they are compressed, then I'm reeeeaaaaally screwed!

PS: I've edited my first post here (as well as begun a posting rampage throughout the boards here and other Persona related forums). I've now added my project to source forge, so it now has a permanent home. You can check the progress I regularly make there (as well as talk on the soon-to-come forums there), if you want. I would really love to talk to you more.


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Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Program
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Flippy
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Nov 09, 09 at 5:42am
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

    I thought it was Maia, according to the finished product found in Suzou's room in Eternal Punishment.


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Cloud737
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Nov 09, 09 at 8:59am
re: Oracle of Maiya - A Persona Fusion Helper and Database Application

Ok, I researched this a bit (since, like I said, I haven't played P2 yet, but I was pretty convinced it was "Maiya"), and it turns out that yes, in Eternal Punishment, there is a brief reference to the "Oracle of Maia", but that is a translation error (it seems it's not the only one in there, too, like "foreign song" as "tongue of stranger", so credibility goes down). The oracle isn't making a direct reference to Maya, the protagonist, or her Persona, Maia, but it may be implying (by slightly changing the name and combining both). In any case, it seems to directly refer to the Maiyans (yes, spelled like that).

It seems translation quality has been bumped up industry standards only after Persona 3 released (first it was the horrible Americanization in P1, then no US P2:IS along with an ok translated P2:EP but with some noticeable translation and consistency errors).

It may have also been called the "Maiyan Oracle" in the game (as some have done), but I very much like the first version, especially since Eternal Punishment (incorrectly) put it that way.

If you want links to check out, then check out this (scroll down to [Why "Maiyan Oracle" and not "Oracle of Maia?"]), this (scroll down to the end of the FAQ, question before last) and h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Persona_2 (2 mentions). [sorry, I'm only allowed 2 URLs per post]

There's also another reason why I chose this name. "Oracle" seems to describe the program's function pretty well, and it's also a reference to the Oracle databases, and my program uses pseudo-databases (in the future I'll use real ones in the form of SQLite, probably), so...
It also seems to make a reference to the Mayans, which is cool.
Oh, and this also allows me to piggyback on the Persona 2 IS translation fan project's fame (since people who'll search that on Google will likely find me first), but I realized that after I decided and submitted my name.

All these reasons add up to what you see. I'm pretty satisfied with the name. I don't think I'll change it, unless someone else has a better (intelligent) name for it.


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