Yes, I do a fair bit of that, but I know I read that they basically cancel each other out. >.>

quote Cloud9157

Yes, I do a fair bit of that, but I know I read that they basically cancel each other out. >.>

but you said

but TL will pretty much excel at everything else

how do you know this?

I'm curious on this cancelling out thing, so let's debunk it shall we?

Link's arrows go nowhere. unless Charged. Which there's no point in doing so we won't even touch this. Toon Link's Arrows can cancel out Link's Boomerang I believe, if it hits the boomerang(not the wind part). Don't quote me on this.

The bombs DO NOT make contact with each other. Like... Bombs can't be cancelled by projectiles. Unless your bomb hits an object and the explosion hits my bomb(MAYBE). Actually no, that doesn't even work. Bomb's don't get cancelled. wtf.

TL's rang can definately clank with Link's rang. So that's the only one that I'm going to give you.

so uh... yeah. Where'd you get that from? If the answer's smashboards, I need proof. Because no one could've possibly let that slide.

He's plain faster for one. Link's attacks have some great range, but he gets punished so badly for them. Off stage, Link is a goner, while TL has a much stronger chance of returning.

Kill power goes to Link, but it's still not that good except for Dair, but that's far too predictable.

EDIT: Now I misunderstood you. >.>

I didn't literally mean they cancel out, rather they're just the same projectiles, just Toon's Arrows have more distance, but slower speed. That, and his Rang doesn't have a wind effect.

When you said not really, I thought you were putting down the claim I made. =\

quote Power of Slash

Toon Link's Arrows can cancel out Link's Boomerang I believe, if it hits the boomerang(not the wind part).

With DI, link can live long >_>



The first thing

Because DI is all it takes for Link to make it back, right?

Like Toon won't do everything in his power to keep Link away from the stage? He can Bair gimp Link, severely limiting Link's options when returning. Oh, and did I mention the projectiles Toon has to also keep Link away?

You underestimate Link's recovery whenever

A) he's up against a character without multiple jumps.

and

B) He's up against a character with NO gimpable horizontal knockback for the most part.

Link's Kill power actually IS really that good. 105-115% compared to having to settle for 140-160%'ish sounds like quite a wide margin to me. Not to mention Link has KILL SETUPS, something that TL's dream of having. That Gale Boomerang is especially dangerous in this department. I know this from experience.

edit: Bair isn't really a good edgeguarding tool. In the area of time that you are allowed to hit Link with a Bair without a projectile in your face or an aerial tossed out to stop you, it would be around a spot where Link still has his second jump, and Bair hits vertically anyways.

Now remember. Most of TL's killing attacks or attacks that would force recovery end up in the top corner or basically somewhere above the stage, which is plenty of recovery room for anybody. The moments where Bair would actually gimp is NOT a spot where you will catch a Link off stage.

This thread needs to be moderated more. These discussions/debates are getting tiresome. AL will defend any character he likes using, and contributions by everyone else are either wrong or half-assed with FEW exceptions.

"But he can do this."
"Yeah, but he can do this."
"True, but then he..."

^ That's the most in-depth the discussions go on this incredible failure of a forum.

Unless you actually want to know, don't post "So and so vs. So and so matchup plx" and then return 5 days later just so you can throw out a new one.

-Seph 25

Honestly, Link kills with Dsmash, Fsmash, and Dair for the most part. He can throw out GS for a little surprise, but all 4 of those moves get punished, whereas you typically prefer KO moves to be at least somewhat safe.

I'm just going to say this again and leave.

Before you start debating match ups for characters, be sure to actually KNOW them.

Your kill move doesn't need to be safe if it's setup.

and really, there's no such thing as a safe kill move EXCEPT for Snake's Utilt and MK's Dsmash.

You're forgetting Usmash btw, which DACUS is required for one of these setups I am talking about. There's also Uair if one's to be really anal about it. but Uair is more useful to TL in this matchup than Link since Uair > Dair.

I've killed with Usmash at stupid percents... I won't even go there.

No safe kill move except those two? Oli's smashes, throws? Wario's Fsmash? GaW's Fsmash, which has a lingering HB? How about just about any move that has super armor on it, like DK's Giant Punch?

And you can't always setup kill moves. Sometimes you don't have the time nor the position to do so.

Oli's throws and smashes have a bit of lag to them.
Wario's Fsmash has endlag.
GaW's Fsmash has startup lag, and even after thrown out with lingering HB is not that hard to hit.
DK's Giant Punch can be hit in startup frames, yes there is a small window to where you can hit it. It can also be sidestepped and punished.

Snake's Utilt has no startup or end lag. Neither does MK's Dsmash. There is no punishing to these moves, even if you sidestep. You are to get out of the way and rethink your approaches to make sure you are not in a position to get hit by these moves.

And when your kill moves aren't setup, then there's a chance you'll probably just land one anyways. Just like anybody else who doesn't have a setup into their kill moves.

remember how oli doesnt have super armor frames for his grabs also?

Well if you want 100% safe moves, then fine, Snake's Utilt and Meta's Dsmash are the only ones.

Compare Link's kill moves to the rest though. The lag he has is NOTHING like Oli's grabs/smashes, nothing at all. Wario and DK at least have SA to their smashes, so you can't just immediately punish with a smash of your own.

quote Boxxy

remember how oli doesnt have super armor frames for his grabs also?

Remember the god damn range he has to them though? I've had more kills off of throws than I care to remember. SA isn't the only thing that makes a plus to a kill move incase you had forgotten. Lag and range of the move are also large factors as well.

If this is the discussion we're getting into because I was misunderstood in the first place, then screw it.

I don't know anything about this game or anything related to this game at all. /sarcasm