quote Cloud9157

No safe kill move except those two?

and then you preceded to state kill moves that aren't safe.

Link's Fsmash has two swipes, and a good amount of shield knockback to it too, so if we're to call Wario's Fsmash "safe" then Link's Fsmash is "safe" as well. Wario's SA only applies to the beginning of his Fsmash as well sooo....

I'm still quite not... getting your point. They fall under the same criteria. Link's Fsmash, Wario's Fsmash, Oli's Usmash/Fsmash, DK's Donkey Punch. If shielded, it knocks the opponent far enough to where the lag should wear off and you can get out the way making it safe. If sidestepped, every single one of those is punished.

Infact Link's Fsmash has less lag than all of those except Oli.

Yeah, now I can tell you're just trying to either piss me off, or you're plain trying to troll me.

Fine, don't call Oli's grabs, which are easily the best grabs in the game, safe kills. Pivot grab is garbage, in addition to the blue Bthrow/Fthrow and Purple Dthrow/Uthrow. You're 100% right TDL, even though I play Oli and you don't. I'm starting to see some AL in you now.

Oh, and if you're going to call me a hypocrite for what I just said, please, go right ahead.

Edit: Ironic thing is, that you seem to be a huge Seph supporter here, yet you go and add to a mini-flame war on this thread.

quote Sephiroth25

I thought IC's had the best grabs in the game.

They get their own class of gayness.

I thought IC's had the best grabs in the game.

/islikingwherethisisgoing

Not to mention that just incase the first swipe of Link's Fsmash IS sidestepped, he's not completely boned, because he has a second swipe that he could just throw out there.

Wario is boned if his Fsmash is sidestepped.
DK is boned if his Punch is sidestepped.
Oli is not quite as boned, but he does get punished definately if he is sidestepped.

You have the option as Link to punish that sidestep with your second swipe, if your opponent were to sidestep. and if your opponent were to continue shielding, The lag from your first swipe is now gone.

While this may make it seem safe, it's still pretty much not a safe move, as a safe move would have to fit the criteria mentioned earlier. A move that can be thrown out with no worries about lag from start to finish. Almost every kill move in this game cannot fit that criteria.

Be reasonable Slash. Kill moves aren't black and white. There are Snake's Utilt and MK's Dsmash which are lolbroak KO moves, but just because those are the only two kill moves with 0 lag doesn't mean everything else plain sucks.

From my own experiences, Fsmash has been punished by my opponent numerous times. Even though it's Wifi and they didn't really play Fox, the connection I had was pretty decent, and all of my moves were punished more times than not.

Edit: Anyway, I'll humor you TDL. I won't talk about MUs that I don't know (even though I may actually have some clue to them), and won't answer any MU questions unless they're on one of my actual used characters and are being asked for real usage.

Maybe you can stop being so pissy then.

Snake's Utilt and MK's Dsmash are punishable.

But that is being reasonable. There are safe moves all over the place in this game, which is what most characters tend to abuse. No kill move except those two are safe.

This isn't to say they suck.
This isn't to say they cannot be applied in situations where they would be granted the ability to become a safe move, Because Diddy Kong is full of those.

But there's a huge difference between safe situations and safe moves. Safe situations are pretty much where your move is setup in a situation where it'll most likely hit, or not grant your opponent the ability to punish.

This is also refered to as Kill setups.

You see where I'm going with this?

Tech Chasing is a universal kill setup, that could be applied to anything, but that's bringing in Mindgames to the equation which have no place in a matchup discussion. Anything could be tech chased.

quote Sephiroth25

Snake's Utilt and MK's Dsmash are punishable.

We could say this. I mean yeah, if they just spam Dsmash we could always approach from the top, or if they just keep utilting there's always tossing out a jectile or running up and shield grabbing it. But let's be reasonable about it , There's always the oppurtunity for either character to react after tossing out either move. You can say you hit them after they threw out their respective move, but that's just player error.

They don't have to do something stupid, you can just shield and punish.

Power shielding is even better.

It's not surprising if you can never punish them online.

So it's an actual possibility to punish, and have it not just be Player error?

If so, then I retract my statement, and say that there are no 'safe' kill moves.

I don't understand the first sentence of your latest post.

Forgive me, I might be a bit tipsy.

It's fine, I'm terrible with syntax.

what I mean is that, there is a possibility to punish said moves without the punishing being attributed to the players mistake?

Such as the player not reacting fast enough, or the player just reacting with the wrong thing.

Essentially just like how everything in brawl is called a 'string' because it's not really a 'combo'.

edit: too tired. I'll pick this up tommorow.

Yes, you can legitimately punish said moves.

quote Power of Slash

You underestimate Link's recovery whenever

A) he's up against a character without multiple jumps.

and

B) He's up against a character with NO gimpable horizontal knockback for the most part.

Link's Kill power actually IS really that good. 105-115% compared to having to settle for 140-160%'ish sounds like quite a wide margin to me. Not to mention Link has KILL SETUPS, something that TL's dream of having. That Gale Boomerang is especially dangerous in this department. I know this from experience.

edit: Bair isn't really a good edgeguarding tool. In the area of time that you are allowed to hit Link with a Bair without a projectile in your face or an aerial tossed out to stop you, it would be around a spot where Link still has his second jump, and Bair hits vertically anyways.

Now remember. Most of TL's killing attacks or attacks that would force recovery end up in the top corner or basically somewhere above the stage, which is plenty of recovery room for anybody. The moments where Bair would actually gimp is NOT a spot where you will catch a Link off stage.

learn 2 bomb cancel dsmash

@Cloud - I do know for a fact that unless you space your grab perfectly, MK can D-tilt you out of it for a trip and Snake can F-tilt you out of it for a wtf.