Good point, but consider that I am not fed up with GTA, per se, just disappointed with IV. Believe it or not, I still play all the PS2 (and XBox and PC) GTA games from last gen and still love those games, even the PSP to PS2 ports. For me, this is more about not liking the new direction, not being overall tired of the series. Saint's Row only fills the void left by Rockstar's latest installment with a sort of "next gen" GTA my way not Rockstar's "new way."

From what I understand about the DLC, there are more in-depth missions than the stand alone game. The first 20 missions in any GTA games are basically instructional missions and then there are usually another 10-20 throw-away missions ( drive this douche here, chase this guy on a dirt bike through the park, etc, etc). Essentially the missions you are getting in the DLC are way more hardcore than the missions you are getting in the original game. More action per mission which makes up for the relatively small number.

The one point I do agree with is that I absolutely hate the concept of downloading games on my XBOX. This would require me to figure out how to sign on to Live, and then figure out how to DL the game. I really don't feel like paying more to access Live and then waste an hour of my life figuring out how to do it. I'm seriously considering ordering the Ballad of Gay Tony just because it will be available in disk format. Another major driver is the fact that there hasn't been a decent game released in months. What is with this absolute drought in decent games? Isn't the Fall usually the strong season for blockbuster games?

I imagine there are many out there who feel similar to you about DLC, igotfired. Don't you think that would have a significant impact on sales for TLAD when you compare it to a disc-based release, assuming your comparison between that content and SR2 is valid (which I don't)?

As for your question about great games, it depends on your choice of genre. There are no fewer than 5 games coming out in the next few months I'm extremely excited about, not to mention the release of Batman: Arkham Asylum a couple of months ago. They include: Brutal Legend, Assassin's Creed 2, Modern Warfare 2, Halo 3 ODST, Borderlands, Forza 3, Left 4 Dead 2, and The Saboteur, just to name a few.

I don't think that would have a significant effect on sales, particularly not a GTA game, considering how widely acclaimed GTA games were last generation.

Alright, well let's consider this economically for a second then. If you want to play GTAIV: TLAD up until this point, you would have to pay for the download itself. Assuming you've registered your 360 online (I know some that haven't), you're going to need to purchase the content either with a credit card or go out of your way to drive to a game store and pick up a Microsoft points card. Next, you're going to have to purchase in addition a Gold membership in order to access the content on the Marketplace. You also need enough hard drive space on your 360 in order to hold the content, assuming you have a hard drive at all (at least an extra 60 bucks) Depending on how long you plan on playing the content online, that will run you anywhere from 10-50 dollars in addition to the price of the game. That's at least 30 bucks for an expansion pack that falls short of the content offered by GTA: San Andreas, Vice City, or SR2 in terms of gameplay hours.

If you wanted to play one of those games, all you had to do was drop the cash down for the disc at a game store or mass retailer. Your console hardware already enabled you to play the game without any specific upgrades or subscription fees required. Now, to those of us who are passionate enough about video games to post on these forums, this cost may not seem prohibitive, nor did we need to upgrade our systems in order to play the extra content. But you're telling me this cost of anywhere from 30-100 dollars in addition to the cost of the console and the original retail game didn't make a difference to casual fans at the margin? Ridiculous.

Most people that have 360's have hard drives. Signing on to LIVE is just a matter of providing an email. You do not have to pay for the silver membership which allows you to purchase content. As for your other points, sorry, but this is GTA we're talking about, expansion pack and all. You can buy LIVE cards in ANY DENOMINATION you like, including 20 dollars assuming you don't have a credit card to use. If this game were anywhere near as popular as fans of IV suggest (or Rockstar hopes) then the DLC would have sold a helluva lot more than a measly million copies.

quote

Most people that have 360's have hard drives.

The existence of an Arcade console without a hard drive and its impressive sales following last year's price drop call that contention into question. I was mistaken about the Gold account to purchase content, but the fact of the matter is incentives favor purchasing the Gold account if you're going to purchase game add-on content anyway.

The fact of the matter is, you have to put up more cash and make more effort to get DLC on your 360 than you need to get a game in disc form. If you want to compare the sales of the DLC to Saint's Row 2 or the previous GTA games, you need to wait until the content is released in disc form without requiring a working Xbox Live account and hard drive space. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.

Not really. It is still a GTA game. My point is that if this were last gen and you were able to (hypothetically, of course) order some add on expansion pack of any one of the GTA games with a ton of more missions, that would have sold many times as many copies as TLAD sold or Gay Tony will. Simply put, in the PS2 generation the fanbase was absolutely rabid and insane about anything new regarding GTA and would have probably seized up any online service were it possible to have DLC back in last generation.

In addition, even the sales of the Arcade 360 don't prove anything, because you would need to double check how many people simply bought a HD later on OR installed an aftermarket compatible HD for a lot cheaper. REMEMBER that it does not COST any additional money to buy DLC off of LIVE, because, as you already realize, Silver membership is free.

quote

Not really. It is still a GTA game. My point is that if this were last gen and you were able to (hypothetically, of course) order some add on expansion pack of any one of the GTA games with a ton of more missions, that would have sold many times as many copies as TLAD sold or Gay Tony will.

That's pure conjecture. It's much more logical to assume that, in this first generation of widespread downloadable content for a home console, there are plenty of reluctant gamers at the margin who simply choose to ignore online content in favor of disc-based software they're more comfortable with. In any event, the comparison of sales of any disc-based software compared to downloadable content is based on the assumption that the average consumer will buy online content just as readily as disc content, which may be true for a select portion of the gaming community, but certainly not for the casual consumer. Downloadable content sales as a whole can illustrate that much, Xbox Live Arcade games sell at a much lower rate than full-priced, disc releases in stores.

quote

In addition, even the sales of the Arcade 360 don't prove anything, because you would need to double check how many people simply bought a HD later on OR installed an aftermarket compatible HD for a lot cheaper.

Which is precisely my point. They have to spend more money if they've purchased an Arcade unit and some may simply choose not to do so. You're paying at least $60 for a piece of hardware that you may only use for one game. In the past, with GTA "expansions" (if you consider TLAD to be the same as San Andreas and Vice), you haven't had to make that purchase before being able to play. That can affect sales significantly. If you want to compare sales, you're going to have to look at sales of the Episodes disc later this month. I still think it's frivolous, given TLAD has already been out for 8 months, but it's certainly closer to comparing past iterations of the series because it requires no additional hardware or account to play.

quote trendyskaman

That's pure conjecture.

Of course it is. That is the point of this thread. NOBODY has any hard evidence about this and I see both sides of the debate. I think you are 100% wrong and you think the same about me. But neither of us is in a position to do ANYTHING but interpret the available data, all of which can be looked at either way or even some grey-shaded reality in between the two extremes.

quote trendyskaman

It's much more logical to assume that, in this first generation of widespread downloadable content for a home console, there are plenty of reluctant gamers at the margin who simply choose to ignore online content in favor of disc-based software they're more comfortable with.

That's pure conjecture!

lol See my point? You are interpreting the information differently than me. I was here in the insanely feverish GTA III and Vice City days (as were you) and I remember how everyone was foaming at the mouth rabidly clamoring for ANYTHING NEW GTA that was coming up on the horizon.

I have not seen one shred of evidence that ANY significant number of people are doing anything anywhere near salivating over TLAD or Gay Tony. Seems like "just another good game to look forward to" to most people, nothing more. And I am talking about GTA IV fans here, not just old school GTA fans like me!

quote trendyskaman

Which is precisely my point. They have to spend more money if they've purchased an Arcade unit and some may simply choose not to do so. You're paying at least $60 for a piece of hardware that you may only use for one game.

That's because you assume that people would only use it for that one game, AND that millions of people aren't buying cheap aftermarket compatible HDs for their 360s, and that the ONLY reason thay are buying them is for GTA's content, which I am also purporting that not an incredible number of people even really care about anyway.

In other words, more conjecture, which is fine because that is all we have at this point, conjecture.

Furthermore, last gen a ton of people ran out and bought PS2's just to play GTA III and other GTA games. You were around then and should know this. If TLAD was as "Popular and widely acclaimed by the GTA community" as you suggest, then buying a HD would be a small price to pay for most rabid fans! My point is that there are very few "rabid fans" of IV in the same way that there were rabid fans of III and other games.

Before you say it, of course this is conjecture, but that is all this discussion can be until someone can provide harder statistical numbers that PROVE GTA IV was immensely popular on its own merits and NOT riding on the crest of the San Andreas (and GTA III and Vice City) wave as I believe!

Chiro,

I totally agree with you on this one. I would have done whatever necessary to get more Vice City of San Andreas. If that involved buying an online membership and downloading content, I would have done that. Nothing in the world would have made me get TLAD. I won't buy it in disc format or via the web. Hell, I wouldn't even play the game for free. They pay me more to take a dump than the cost of TLAD so cost really isn't in the issue. I just have zero interest in more GTA IV. However, Ballad of Gay Tony does look interesting to me and I may buy a copy off of the used rack.

There won't be a used rack just for the Ballad of Gay Tony, because the hard copy of the game I believe comes coupled with TLAD. But you can get it through LIVE Marketplace.

As for your point, that is what I was saying. People last gen would have been falling all over themselves and tripping over one another to get "episodes" of San Andreas, Vice City, or III. Anyone who thinks otherwise just was not around during the heyday of those forums, and the fact is trandyskaman was, so he should know better! Three months after Vice City came out that forum was flirting with 1K PPD! So were all the other GTA forums even months after the games were released. They were massively busy and people would have sold their *bleep*ing souls for the last gen equivalent these episodes, assuming of course there was DLC way back then.

quote ChiroVette

My point is that if this were last gen and you were able to (hypothetically, of course) order some add on expansion pack of any one of the GTA games with a ton of more missions, that would have sold many times as many copies as TLAD sold or Gay Tony will. Simply put, in the PS2 generation the fanbase was absolutely rabid and insane about anything new regarding GTA and would have probably seized up any online service were it possible to have DLC back in last generation.

Yeah... last gen. When the series was still fresh and new and the games offered unrivaled gameplay and features.
Unfortunately, the title is running its course. A game can only go so far before they need to either move on or scrap the old version and create a new one, which I'm partial to believe is why IV is so 'different.'
But besides that, you have to consider that this DLC is uninteresting. I love both the old and new iterations of GTA, and I have little to no interest in these new packs... because, as I pointed out, they're just generally uninteresting.
Can the lack of sales not just be that simple, that these packs are just STALE? Does it have to be a conspiracy that everyone loathes IV?

quote Master

Yeah... last gen. When the series was still fresh and new and the games offered unrivaled gameplay and features.

This I agree with 100%.

quote Master

Unfortunately, the title is running its course. A game can only go so far before they need to either move on or scrap the old version and create a new one, which I'm partial to believe is why IV is so 'different.'

Or add more and get better within the confines of an already winning formula. Look, I see where you're coming from, and I also know that it is obvious that Rockstar, and all the fans of IV like yourself, believe that it was just time to move on and into a completely new direction or at least a new gaming paradigm. While I don't share that opinion, I respect it.

quote Master

But besides that, you have to consider that this DLC is uninteresting. I love both the old and new iterations of GTA, and I have little to no interest in these new packs... because, as I pointed out, they're just generally uninteresting.
Can the lack of sales not just be that simple, that these packs are just STALE? Does it have to be a conspiracy that everyone loathes IV?

I think you're over-dramatizing a bit there, but you had me (well at least I agreed in principal) until right here. No, it is not some conspiracy. There are no secret handshake, Illuminati, One-world-government, European bankers conspiring to ruin a monumental game franchise so they can watch the chaos ensue while they pick up the pieces and usher us into the New World Order. Rockstar simply made a decision because they felt the series was getting stale.

While I ABSOLUTELY disagree with their assessment, I understand where they are coming from, and even respect the reasons why they felt this way enough to say "Things are gonna be different!"

So, no, it is not a conspiracy, and you are probably right that people simply find the episode "uninteresting," but I find that particularly telling! Wanna know why? Because, while I never played TLAD, and don't care to, it looks a whole lot like...wait for it...an episode of more GTA IV missions! Since I had my fill of GTA IV actually long before I completed my second 100% campaign, OF COURSE TLAD LOOKS UNINTERESTING! lol

But here's what I keep defaulting to:

If GTA III (or SA, or VC) had come out with a full DLC mission pack expansion last gen, and it looked like NOTHING MORE than just more missions in the same game, I would have been busting a gut to get my hands on it to play it, and SO WOULD 99% of the GTA fans I believe! And maybe I am wrong here, but if you are truly honest, and GTA III came out with an expansion pack with more mission, I believe you would have been one of those like me, that is clamoring for it!

The fact that you are one of the most vocal fans of GTA IV I know and EVEN YOU don't care about the latest available FULL GTA GAME (that looks to me to be a whole helluva lot like GTA IV) tells me more than you may wish me to read into that statement, my friend.

quote ChiroVette

YOU don't care about the latest available FULL GTA GAME (that looks to me to be a whole helluva lot like GTA IV)

...Because it is IV, and isn't a "FULL GTA GAME". Sure, they're coming out on a disk, but they're still only a 'booster pack' of - which we seem to agree on - uninteresting missions. No new cities, no new secrets, no new features... just missions for characters that you only see once or twice for a brief moment, thereby gaining no connection or INTEREST to, and some new missions. YAWN! I've downloaded user-made mods for the last gen games with more interesting and original content.
You can read into my view on it as much as you want, because I've put it in plain printed English - these episodes look BORING and are childs-play next to VC/SA.