She's right, Cauis, you are not even acknowledging that number. I know you never said matter is infinite. Time is infinite, matter is not, that's what I'm getting at. BTW That number is assuming you're in a moderate climate. I know however though that you can't explain how things began. In fact, the big bang is a fools story. Where did the matter come to create the big bang. Of course none of you can explain that. Because matter doesn't exist forever. Cauis, you just don't see the facts. You don't realize it, it's impossible for it to happen in anywhere near 2 billion years. When you said something about picking numbers. Know, 10^4980 is not infinite. I thought you knew that . But, I gave you an easy break. Now to the facts.
The chance of 1 cell forming is 10^29345. We have anywhere from 10-100 trillion cells. Cells require a certain climate to reproduce. Much like germs, but not nearly as hardy. Ozone layers don't just randomly pop up on planets. Nor do planets supply the perfect amount of gravity, or air pressure. We just "happen" to be on the perfect planet to support life. I can't even begin to describe how slim the chance of that happening is. Oh, BTW, you still haven't countered any of my bashes on evolution, you've tried to say something about time, but as we know, matter is not infinite. If there were no matter in this world, it wouldn't be possible for there ever to be matter. Because matter comes from matter, nothing else.

quote davedemon

She's right, Cauis,

she who? i wasn't even in the discussion.

Yes you were. You said that are discussion is boring. Then I stated it was boring because Cauis didn't know how big that number was.

I'm in a hurry, so I'll make my reply quick, and yes I'll most likely miss things out.
How things began? No, I can't explain how the big bang occurred. To the best of my knowledge, no one can. There are theories, but it's impossible to prove most of them. To counter, how did god come to be then?
Matter, however, does exist forever (well, according to a friend in one google plex years or something, all protons will have decayed), it just changes forms.
It is VERY unlikely for a cell to form, but once it does it doesn't have to randomly occur every time, it can produce others like itself.
No, ozones don't randomly occur. We are in what some call the "Goldilocks Zone", a solar system perfect for life. There is an equation, I believe it is the Drake Equation, which could explain the likelyhood of life. I'll explain how I mean this later, sorry I missed lots.

quote davedemon

Yes you were. You said that are discussion is boring.

i was outside of the discussion, and calling people liers is rude.


if you want to talk about stuff that gives my poor head a migrain, there is a forum for you in lounges called "intellegent discussion"

Ah, I prefer a debate against Cauis, tis intelligent such a biased word. Cauis, God never began, he's all powerful. Now of course you say that's impossible, on the other hand it's more logical. Mutations alter cells, another major problem with Evolution is how everything just "happened" to evolve so perfectly. Every single mutation just "happened" to work together. Every bad thing that happens, just "works". Funny, the Bible was written over a period of 1,500 years yet it all fits and never contradicts itself. Okay, now try and prove me wrong. Of course you won't, yeah yeah, go look up some youtube videos then get ready to be pwned. Also, very few religions change people in a good way. VERY few. Christianity would be on of them. But a lot of people just call themselves Christians when they're not. Okay, done with that. Back to the scientifically-oriented debate of sorts. Besides, technically Evolution (nor Creationism) is Science, because neither of them are Repeatable, Measurable, or Observable. But because Evolution is by far statistically impossible(586x the estimated probability of impossible), meaning that I would be correct saying it isn't repeatable. Now it isn't observable, because no beneficial mutation has happened in our time. It's not measurable either because you've never seen how long it's taken. Scientists don't have an accurate estimation of how old bones are. Also, the is evidence of a huge flood, which would explain certain cities being buried in 23 feet of mud. The Bible mentions they Hittites several times. They said they were fake until they started finding cities, bones, and artifacts in the area where the Bible mentioned. The people on youtube that say the Bible contradicts itself have never argued with actual Christians.

you know that utube is a bunch of bullstit right? people will put anything on the web for publicity and money. the same exact shit is on myspace, reason why, i don't have a myspace, its compleatly useless, i prefer the facts.

quote davedemon

Scientists don't have an accurate estimation of how old bones are.

you don't watch much tv. do you? heeello? animal planet!

quote davedemon

Scientists don't have an accurate estimation of how old bones are

Ever heard of carbon dating?
As for the bible - it isn't valid evidence. No offense (by the way, I am religious, not Christian though). Let's take the story of Noah's Ark. Rain for forty days and forty nights. Flooded the world. Not only is this impossible, but there is no conclusive evidence, apart from the bible's words. Perhaps in 1500 years, the Harry Potter books will be taken as fact, as people will have forgotten that it was written as a fiction. I'm not saying the bible was meant to be fictional, the writers probably believed it, but one book isn't conclusive.
I'm sorry, but to say an omnipotent, omnipresent, being is logical just doesn't make sense.
As for evolving perfectly, that is logical. The planet was how it was, there was a basic life form (lets say a amoeba), it mutated (or had a mutated offspring), which happened to be better then it, so it survived better. The offspring which evolve and work better in their environment are the ones that survive. The environment dictates what lives or not. So yes, we have had perfect evolution.

Logic bides with probability, when one answer is wrong, it goes with the other. Due to Evolution's insane(insanely insane)probability, it is considered impossible, therefore it is logical to say that we were designed. Evolving perfectly is illogical, like I say, logic bides with probability, because it is extremely improbable that we could've evolved perfectly, it is illogical. Therefore logical picks the other answer... We were designed.

quote Caius Cosades

The environment dictates what lives or not.

No. The environment dictates how things live, not if they will live. Offspring are (often) naturally not as strong or born with a defect. It has been proven that our immune systems have grown traumatically weaker over the years(though mostly because of ourselves) leaving us dependent on vaccinations and medicine. Now I will say that we have grown smarter, but not stronger. I know what carbon dating is. After a great flood, it would make sense that it would age bones to appear older then they are. It would also explain the grand canyon. You are obviously not religious. Raining for 40 days and 40 nights is very much more probable then evolution . If a higher being did it, the probability would drop to 1 because it didn't happen by chance. But like I said, even happening by itself (which it didn't) is much more probable then a protein randomly forming.

quote davedemon

Due to Evolution's insane(insanely insane)probability, it is considered impossible

Considered impossible by who?

quote davedemon

The environment dictates how things live, not if they will live.

Look, if something is born that can't survive its environment, it will die quickly. Competition goes on in nature, one beast that is better then all the others will find it easy, and slowly the others will die out because they can't compete with the new type of animal that is better then them.

quote davedemon

It has been proven that our immune systems have grown traumatically weaker over the years(though mostly because of ourselves) leaving us dependent on vaccinations and medicine.

That is due to lack of need for decent immune systems, due to better medical science.

quote davedemon

It would also explain the grand canyon.

That was caused by a river eroding over millions of years... not a flood...

quote davedemon

You are obviously not religious.

Yes I am.

quote davedemon

If a higher being did it

How did this being come to be? What was there before it? What was there before it created the universe? How do we know this? Christianity started up beyond 1 AD, the planet has been around for around 3.4 billion years. Some religious scholars say differently, but that HAS been PROVED.

quote Caius Cosades

That is due to lack of need for decent immune systems, due to better medical science.

Not true, as we discovered more about germs, we felt the need to get rid of them. The reason we need better medical science is because of are immune systems. Back then after people took a crap they only washed there hands with water . Meaning that most of the germs were still on there hands. Now if everybody started doing that today we would all probably get sick.

quote Caius Cosades

Considered impossible by who?

Law of probability . 10^50 is the statistical probability for impossible. The chance of a cell forming i.e. evolution, is 10^29345. Which as before stated is 586x the statistical probability for impossible.

quote Caius Cosades

Look, if something is born that can't survive its environment, it will die quickly. Competition goes on in nature, one beast that is better then all the others will find it easy, and slowly the others will die out because they can't compete with the new type of animal that is better then them.

Cells multiply and make cells like them. If 1 cell forms, it must have been in an acceptable climate. Because cells make cells after there own kind, they would make other cells able to live in the same climate. So if 1 animal can live in the climate it formed in, it's offspring would be able to live in the same climate. Then the animals would naturally kill each other and make off spring. Remember, the question was about the environment not about survival of the fittest.

quote Caius Cosades

That was caused by a river eroding over millions of years... not a flood...

I'm sure your mom was there to see it .

It would make more sense that a massive flood carved the rock out. Did you know: That if you go to the bottom layers of the rock you can find hoards of creatures, most of them are an extinct kind of squid. Now, a little river fossilized hoards of squid in the same spot. A massive flood would be more logical. Scientists say that a meteor killed all the dinosaurs. Well, if a meteor could kill the dinosaurs it would've killed all the lesser creatures, like lions, tigers, zebras, giraffes, mice. A meteor that big would've obliterated the planet earth. Also, NASA said that a planet relatively close to our solar system.About 2000 years ago it crashed into another planet. The impact was so strong that it stripped one of the planets outsides off and left the core. Which would explain the star of David and how it was so bright (because Jesus would've been born about 2000 years ago).

quote Caius Cosades

HAS been PROVED.

By a bunch of people who won't look at the facts.

quote Caius Cosades

How did this being come to be?

He never did. Which would make him God. No?

quote Caius Cosades

What was there before it created the universe?

Nothing. If nothing happened though. Literally NOTHING, it would've happened in an instant.

quote Caius Cosades

Christianity started up beyond 1 AD

Yes, and no. During the life of Jesus you could be a considered Christian if you believed Jesus to be the Messiah. After AD you were a Christian if you believed Jesus died on the Cross for your sins AND that he was the Messiah or son of God.

quote Caius Cosades

Yes I am.

What religion, every single religion I've ever heard of involves a God. Something evolution denies.

quote davedemon

By a bunch of people who won't look at the facts.

Won't look at the facts? What are you on? You aren't looking at the facts! What about dinosaur fossils (granted, they're only a few million years old), carbon dating, blue-green algae fossils? Look at the universe, I can't quite remember how, but they have used it to prove the age of the universe.

quote davedemon

it would've killed all the lesser creatures, like lions, tigers, zebras, giraffes, mice.

If they had been around, yes. All excluding mice evolved after.
The dinosaurs didn't die due to the impact, they died due to the ash and dust that was uplifted by the force of the impact and the heat generated by the impact. It blocked out the sun, plants died, herbivores had nothing to eat so they died, and carnivores had no herbivores to eat, so they died too. Mice and small animals survived I guess by pure chance, their size perhaps and then over the millions of years they ate other small animals and things that could survive the lack of sun, like...fungi...

quote davedemon

Yes, and no. During the life of Jesus you could be a considered Christian if you believed Jesus to be the Messiah. After AD you were a Christian if you believed Jesus died on the Cross for your sins AND that he was the Messiah or son of God.

So the earliest that it possibly could have begun would have been 1 AD, as BC means literally Before Christ.
How does the bible know it began when it says it began? Christianity started after everything began, how do they know how it began?

quote davedemon

What religion, every single religion I've ever heard of involves a God. Something evolution denies.

Not every religion. Like Scientology. It's a load of BS, but it's still a valid religion.
My religion does, however, involve gods, but in a different sense then Christianity.

That's all I'll reply to at the moment. I should get a friend of mine to take over, he knows more about this then I.

EDIT: Also, sorry it took so long to reply. My internet has been down since Sunday.

quote Caius Cosades

So the earliest that it possibly could have begun would have been 1 AD, as BC means literally Before Christ.
How does the bible know it began when it says it began? Christianity started after everything began, how do they know how it began?

It was prophesied. The Bible has an accurate track record. It accurately predicted the rising and falling of the great early nations. Like the Babylonians, Assyrians, Romans, Greeks. It also mentioned the Hittites which were said to be fake until they started finding bones in that region. Whose to say it isn't valid evidence when it hasn't been proved wrong. Though both sides require faith. Oh, but they wouldn't dare use carbon dating on those. Carbon dating has a lot of theories tied into it. It is like Evolution. The people who made it won't look at the facts. The reason I keep saying that is because you just are oblivious to the number 10^29345.

quote Caius Cosades

Mice and small animals survived I guess by pure chance

Pure chance, that's the only thing Evolution has to rely on.

Now back to the quote:

quote Caius Cosades

So the earliest that it possibly could have begun would have been 1 AD, as BC means literally Before Christ.
How does the bible know it began when it says it began? Christianity started after everything began, how do they know how it began?

Many things have been prophesied. The birth of Jesus was prophesied.

quote Caius Cosades

quote davedemon

it would've killed all the lesser creatures, like lions, tigers, zebras, giraffes, mice.

If they had been around

Holy crap....Holy crap....Now your trying to say that all those things evolved in a few million years. Statistically, do you know the chance of that. The chance of that is so slim, that it makes the chance of a cell forming, look small.... You just cornered yourself into a math battle. I can't calculate the exact probability. But because there have been no beneficial mutations in our time (recorded), and because mutations decrease as there are more good genes, we could say that it the probability would be somewhere above the chance of a cell forming, and I repeat, the chance of a cell forming is that of 586x the statistical impossibility (which is 10^50). So the only chance of winning now is that you have to someway, somehow, prove there isn't a God. Otherwise I'll just keep throwing gigantic numbers at you until you realize how big they are.

Honestly, this debate is getting ridiculous.
You cannot use prophecy as historical proof. So they got a few prophecies right. So what? Nostradamus prophesied dozens of things. A few came true, most didn't. Does that prove that we're all going to die in 2012? No.
Stories get warped over time.
Look at Maori tradition. They didn't invent reading or writing, so history was oral.
Their history about how the Maori came to New Zealand eventually mixes with myth, so you know a lot of things cannot be.
Watch the David Blaine episode of South Park. Jesus stars in it and uses his magic. His water to wine magic is as simple as swapping the two glasses.
What I'm trying to say is, perhaps over the past two thousand years the truth has been bent way out of proportion.
Perhaps Jesus was just a relatively ordinary guy with ADHD. He was crazy and had visions. People believed things back then more readily then now. Perhaps his water-to-wine trick was pretty simple, but over time as we became more cynical it had to be warped to sound plausible.
Now, I should really get back to study.

There are very few prophecies left in the Bible. The only ones that haven't come true yet are the ones that talk about end times.

quote Caius Cosades

Perhaps Jesus was just a relatively ordinary guy with ADHD. He was crazy and had visions.

No, he never had any visions. He was not an ordinary guy. Most religions call him a prophet, though he is more then that. The only thing they killed him for was blasphemy, but other then that he had done nothing wrong, he was perfect. Only God is perfect, therefore he must be God. If Jesus was a crazy guy with ADHD why is the center of our timing system based on him .

quote Caius Cosades

People believed things back then more readily then now.

Yes, and no. People were very stubborn back then. But they were also very gullible. Some people readily believed, some didn't.

quote Caius Cosades

Perhaps his water-to-wine trick was pretty simple, but over time as we became more cynical it had to be warped to sound plausible.

*sigh* You can't do a religious debate over the Bible when you don't know anything about it. The Bible has never changed, things have only been added to it. The Bible is complete right now. The Bible really has never changed. Unlike evolutionists theories of how life began.

quote Caius Cosades

Look at Maori tradition. They didn't invent reading or writing, so history was oral.

Therefore it's not history, and we have no record that they ever wrote anything believable, because you said they couldn't read or write.

quote Caius Cosades

You cannot use prophecy as historical proof

Yes, if that prophecy accurately matches historical proof then it is a valid answer.