Matthew to top because he's your only thief for about half the game, and thieving utility is uber, and he also gets you the silver card. And his combat stats are actually not bad, although it does get worse relative to the other units once he caps his level.

Ninian/Nils up because they dance. Dancers are uber.

Erk up because he has great offense, and then gets nice durability with supports from Prissy and Pent.

Hector down because of crappy promotion time.

Guy up because he's got pretty ridiculous stats with HHM bonus (he's easily the best fighter earlygame, aside from Marcus and Oswin), and full crit from every support (more or less) and can get near 100 crit rates with a killing edge. And he gets nice avoid.

Kent and Sain up because they have good stats (Kent's are comparable to Raven's, and Sain has wtfh4x str), and cavalier is an awesome class.

Lucius down due to what is almost the game's worst durability.

Marcus down due to him hurting the exp rank. Very useful early on, but quickly dies off.

Legault down because Matthew is better. Legault's HHM bonuses aren't enough to even come close to countering Matthew's earlygame utility.

Heath down due to joining underlevelled and meh stats.

Rebecca up. She actually has good stats and supports, although she's got a bad start and bad class, but decent.

Lyn down due to crappy durability and bad promotion time. If she wants to promote 1st, she hurts Eliwood, who easily has the superior promotion.

Rath down due to joining underlevelled and meh stats.

Dorcas up, since he's actually decent for earlygame. Okay cannon fodder, and can weaken stuff.

Isadora up, because she is a paladin and has good stats (at least compared to the other units around her level).

Canas down due to atrocious spd before promotion, and only average stats after.

quote smash fanatic

Matthew to top because he's your only thief for about half the game, and thieving utility is uber, and he also gets you the silver card. And his combat stats are actually not bad, although it does get worse relative to the other units once he caps his level.

quote smash fanatic

Ninian/Nils up because they dance. Dancers are uber.

quote smash fanatic

Erk up because he has great offense, and then gets nice durability with supports from Prissy and Pent.

quote smash fanatic

Hector down because of crappy promotion time.

quote smash fanatic

Guy up because he's got pretty ridiculous stats with HHM bonus (he's easily the best fighter earlygame, aside from Marcus and Oswin), and full crit from every support (more or less) and can get near 100 crit rates with a killing edge. And he gets nice avoid.

quote smash fanatic

Kent and Sain up because they have good stats (Kent's are comparable to Raven's, and Sain has wtfh4x str), and cavalier is an awesome class.

quote smash fanatic

Lucius down due to what is almost the game's worst durability.

quote smash fanatic

Marcus down due to him hurting the exp rank. Very useful early on, but quickly dies off.

quote smash fanatic

Legault down because Matthew is better. Legault's HHM bonuses aren't enough to even come close to countering Matthew's earlygame utility.

quote smash fanatic

Heath down due to joining underlevelled and meh stats.

quote smash fanatic

Rebecca up. She actually has good stats and supports, although she's got a bad start and bad class, but decent.

quote smash fanatic

Rath down due to joining underlevelled and meh stats.

quote smash fanatic

Dorcas up, since he's actually decent for earlygame. Okay cannon fodder, and can weaken stuff.

quote smash fanatic

Isadora up, because she is a paladin and has good stats (at least compared to the other units around her level).

quote smash fanatic

Canas down due to atrocious spd before promotion, and only average stats after.

Wow, this is pretty old...

Scanning through it, nothing glaring, personal preference aside, Rath should be lower.

Comes back to you relatively and underleveled, not to mention impossible/waste to level him in Lyn's mode. Stats aren't that great, and Bows aren't useful at the stage he returns.

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Lol @ Combat stats are actually not bad. Legault RAPES him in almost EVERY SINGLE STAT with HHM bonuses and Matthew gets dropped as soon as Legault is recruited.

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No they aren't. They're a liability until you level them up to Lv 15ish where they become dodge tanks. Also, lack of supports is never good.

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You're not using Erk with both Pent AND Priscilla. Although, I have to agree that his offense is pretty good earlygame. I'll bump him up a few spaces too, maybe.

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His next chapter ensures easy leveling for him AND, because of his low level, will boost EXP rank.

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Erk and Lowen outclass him as earlygame fighters.

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You're not using him later in the game due to Raven and other units being stronger fighters

quote

nor are you using his Killing Edge that much due to Funds Rank.

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And Raven's stats > Kent's due to HHM bonuses.

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A Raven B Priscilla 20/1 Lucius has 10 Def, 22 Res, and 46 Eva.

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XD@ that. Marcus doesn't hurt EXP rank. PLAYERS hurt EXP rank by using him too much in the beginning.

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Sniper isn't a bad class. It's a TERRIBLE class. Bows are terrible weapons, only having situational advantages. They are expensive, and they can't counter melee attacks.

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She can't deal much damage nor can she take hits with her low Str, and Def either. Wil is better at those things.

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He actually has quite good stats. That, and swords + bow combo is not bad since he can counter melee attacks as well. He also gives Lyn one of her better supports.

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I suggest you check those stats again. She has horrible stats apart from Spd which hardly matters anyway since she can't wield anything heavier than an Iron Sword without Spd loss. Take her Silver weapons and Angelic Robe and bench her.

quote

16/0 Matthew
28.5 HP, 8.2 str, 19.6 spd, 48.2 avo, 6.5 def, 2.8 res, 6 move, 7 con

12/0 Legault
HHM bonus is class growth x 5. So these are his bonuses.
2.5 HP, .25 str, who cares skl, 2 spd, .25 def, 1 res, 2 lck.
His bases would be...
28.5 HP, 8.25 str, 17 spd, 46 avo, 8.25 def, 4 res, 6 move, 9 con

zomg, they're basically tied. Except Matthew has supports and Legault doesn't. Matthew has Hector, Guy, and Oswin. Legault has no one worth mentioning.

quote

1) Dancers let the best unit in the given situation move again. If you need another attacker, for example, you can dance an attacker, or if you need to heal, dance a healer. So basically, they can be any unit on the team. And letting the strongest unit attack twice > letting the strongest and second strongest unit attack once each.

2) Dancers also use a separate exp pool. They do not kill enemies, so your other units will, and they will be a higher level. Also, they help the exp rank.

3) Ninian/Nils can use rings, which are situationally helpful.

quote

Why not? Anima is easily the best magic type; lowest wt of the three, but very good mt. Having 3 anima > having 1 of each type. The only problem with anima is WTD against Dark, but shamans/druids have a lot of RES, so you'd be an idiot to attack them with magic units anyway.

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no. Guy is way faster, so he doubles what they can't. The three are, at worst for Guy, roughly equal.

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You're not using him later in the game due to Raven and other units being stronger fighters

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Show.

quote

having near 100 crit is more than enough to not worry about funds rank.

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Of course, but Raven's awesome. Kent having similar stats is a pretty nice perk. Kent's actually BETTER than Raven on normal modes, which is saying something.

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With 30 Hp...

25 att 2HKOs.
20 att 3HKOs.
~18 4HKOs.

That's pretty bad, given that 46 avo is crap. And he may not even get Prissy, since Prissy is popular and has arguably better options.

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Marcus getting 1 kill hurts the exp rank more than someone else getting 1 kill. He's good for getting out of tight spots, but that quickly fades away as people catch up to his stats.

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Her str is easily rectified by supports (full att wtf). She also gets massive avoid, but that doesn't really matter since she shouldn't be attacked.

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He is massively underlevelled, as in, almost 10. Or more. He will help the exp rank, but that's countered by him sucking for the time he plays catch up.

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Compared to the units around her, she's decent. Anyone around her on the tier list that beat her in stats have several problems (Rath joins massively underlevelled, Vaida isn't around for most of the game, Canas massively phails before promotion, etc.). She also gets full avo from supports so she won't be a liability defensively. Offensively, she can use any expensive weapons you have right from the start since she didn't use a 10k promo item to promote.

quote smash fanatic

blahblah stats.

zomg, they're basically tied. Except Matthew has supports and Legault doesn't. Matthew has Hector, Guy, and Oswin. Legault has no one worth mentioning.

quote smash fanatic

1) Dancers let the best unit in the given situation move again. If you need another attacker, for example, you can dance an attacker, or if you need to heal, dance a healer. So basically, they can be any unit on the team. And letting the strongest unit attack twice > letting the strongest and second strongest unit attack once each.

2) Dancers also use a separate exp pool. They do not kill enemies, so your other units will, and they will be a higher level. Also, they help the exp rank.

3) Ninian/Nils can use rings, which are situationally helpful.

quote smash fanatic

Why not? Anima is easily the best magic type; lowest wt of the three, but very good mt. Having 3 anima > having 1 of each type. The only problem with anima is WTD against Dark, but shamans/druids have a lot of RES, so you'd be an idiot to attack them with magic units anyway.

quote smash fanatic

He's massively sucking for the time he's stuck at 20/0 (which is a REALLY long time), and he cannot kill anything because he'll hurt the exp rank.

quote smash fanatic

no. Guy is way faster, so he doubles what they can't. The three are, at worst for Guy, roughly equal.

quote smash fanatic

Show.

         HP    Str    Skl    Spd    Def    Res    Luk   Con
HHMGuy   32.7  11.1   18.5   20.0    7.4    3.8   10.0   5
Oswin    32.5  15.0   10.5    6.5   15.8    4.5    4.8  14
HHMRaven 36.6  14.9   16.6   18.6    8.1    3.3    5.1   8
Hector   33.4  16.6   11.2   10.6   16.0    4.0    7.8  13

quote

having near 100 crit is more than enough to not worry about funds rank.

quote

Of course, but Raven's awesome. Kent having similar stats is a pretty nice perk. Kent's actually BETTER than Raven on normal modes, which is saying something.

         HP    Str    Skl    Spd    Def    Res    Luk   Con
Kent     31.0  11.2   12.5   12.9    8.2    4.2    4.6   9
Raven    32.6  12.9   14.6   17.0    7.2    2.3    5.1   8
HHMRaven 36.6  14.9   16.6   18.6    8.1    3.3    5.1   8

quote smash fanatic

With 30 Hp...

25 att 2HKOs.
20 att 3HKOs.
~18 4HKOs.

That's pretty bad, given that 46 avo is crap. And he may not even get Prissy, since Prissy is popular and has arguably better options.

quote smash fanatic

Marcus getting 1 kill hurts the exp rank more than someone else getting 1 kill. He's good for getting out of tight spots, but that quickly fades away as people catch up to his stats.

quote

XD@ that. Marcus doesn't hurt EXP rank. PLAYERS hurt EXP rank by using him too much in the beginning.

quote smash fanatic

That is certainly true, but not being able to counter melee is only worth so much.
On player phase, you have everyone attack.
On enemy phase, only certain units can counterattack, so you want your strongest units to counterattack. In this case, even though someone like, say, Bartre or Dorcas can counterattack, you wouldn't let them over someone like Hector or something, because they aren't likely killing the enemy.

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Her str is easily rectified by supports (full att wtf). She also gets massive avoid, but that doesn't really matter since she shouldn't be attacked.

quote

And her offensive stats are pretty good past the earlygame. Take a look here...

20/1 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Sain
19.6 str, 18.3 spd, 6 con

20/1 Kent, A Lyn or Sain or Fiora/B Lyn or Sain or Fiora
19.6 str, 16.5 spd, 11 con

20/1 Florina, A Lyn/B Fiora
19.6 str, 18.8 spd, 5 con

Similar offensive stats compared to both of them. Of course Kent and Florina are way better overall, but this certainly is worth something.

quote

He is massively underlevelled, as in, almost 10. Or more. He will help the exp rank, but that's countered by him sucking for the time he plays catch up.

quote

Compared to the units around her, she's decent. Anyone around her on the tier list that beat her in stats have several problems (Rath joins massively underlevelled, Vaida isn't around for most of the game, Canas massively phails before promotion, etc.). She also gets full avo from supports so she won't be a liability defensively. Offensively, she can use any expensive weapons you have right from the start since she didn't use a 10k promo item to promote.

quote

Hector doesn't want Matthew. He wants Eliwood and Oswin for Atk, Def, and EVA boosts, which Matthew only gives Atk.

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Guy is only used early on, and is dropped once you obtain better units.

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Oswin... maybe. IF you want an early boost in stats, Oswin might want Matthew, but if you want to have a support with units you'll use in the long run, Priscilla or Serra look like better option.

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Now let's look at the practicality of a thief using supports:

Thieves are utility units, so they'll be off hunting treasure away from the main party, right? And your offensive units will be sticking in your main attacking group, killing enemies. Supports only kick in if the units are within 3 spaces of each other and since thieves are not usually near your units, there's not much practicality in wasting supports on your units.

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Actually, they have average Mt. Anima's main problem is its cost. Magic tomes aren't cheap and you have to factor that.

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Lol@ Hector sucking. A Eliwood C Oswin 20/- Hector has an effective defense of 21 and 53 Eva. Also, 29 POW puts a dent into any non-General enemies' HP.

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You're overestimating FE7's enemies. Even in HHM, they have crap Spd except for the HHM Myrmidons which even have enough Spd to avoid being DA'd.

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Oswin beats Guy HEAVILY in durability and is arguably equal in offense due to higher effective POW. Assuming Iron weapons, Guy will have to attack units with 10 Def or less to outdamage Oswin, which, by the time they reach 14/- will be a challenge to find.

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Raven beats Guy in offense and Guy's defensive leads aren't enough to compare. (5 POW vs 7 Eva wtf)

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Hector is a beast who raeps Guy in offense and defense. That, and his using axes helps funds better.

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Killing Edge uses 65G/hit.
Iron Sword uses 10G/hit.

For every two hits you use with Killing Edge, you could kill one or two units depending whether you Critical or not.
For every 13 hits you use with an Iron Sword, you could kill at least four or five enemies.

Killing Edge is not value for money.

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Kent has only slight leads on Def and Res while losing out in everything else. Constitution is balanced out by Raven's huge Spd lead.

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Lucius kills any non-boss melee unit with his 28 POW and 32 Crt before they can 2HKO him.

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And Priscilla will be choosing between Oswin, Lucius, Raven, and Erk for a long term support. Lucius has a 50% chance of being chosen if her supporting characters are chosen at random.

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It's not Marcus' fault he got the kill. It's the player's fault for putting him in a position where he gets the kill. Enemy AI won't even target Marcus due to his higher HP and Def so players actually have to use him to kill units.

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You're not using Bartre and Dorcas because they're crap. The more logical scenario is that you send your higher Def / Eva characters like Hector, Oswin, Matthew/Legault or Raven in front to bait enemies without getting much damage and attack them on your turn.

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"Shouldn't be" does not mean "Won't be". Like it or not, there will be situations where she will be attack and will have to rely on the RNG to survive.

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Actually, both Kent and Florina are outdamaging her due to better weapons and their ability to counterattack on enemies' turn. >_>

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Being locked to bows seriously screws her over.

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... Who's tier list are you using?

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You're not using her in a ranked run because she's such crap. You don't even factor her offensive capabilities because she is outperformed offensively by a LOT of characters.

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And using her silver weapons drains funds.

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Matthew is also 4 levels ahead. That gap will only grow in stats as the levels increase, and Legault will clearly edge out.

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1: Your dancer would likely be behind due to the other unit's double movement space. So to double attack, you'd have to hold him back. two strongest people attacking > one strongest attacking but being held back, waiting for the dancer to catch up.

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3: I have found the rings necessary in one chapter alone, and that is Light (Lloyd battle). You can function without them.

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Anima in the magic triangle is the mirror image of lances in the weapon tiangle; well balanced, common, etc. Just like a team of all lance users would not do as well as a mixed one, your magic should be mixed.

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Light magic takes on druids with high res easily, doubling and hitting without strain, and most likely criticaling as well.

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I'd say all three of these are mediocre, but Guy less in the begining, but more in the end. He just doesnt have the strength to stand up for himself.

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Raven maxes strength on average IIRC. What more proof do you need? He also gets axes.

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Your killing efficiency is not going to help your funds rank at all when your playing for an S rank.

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Wrong. Raven is always better offensively then Kent. Not so sure about defensively though...

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Of course, but he is irreplacable for getting out of those few tight spots you're in.

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With whom? Wil? One Sniper is terrible enough.

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But she can't lift anything. Her only good stat is useless.

quote smash fanatic

The Eliwood support is fine.
Hector and Oswin are rarely dying, so them getting more def and att won't mean much. Hector likely won't see the difference between supporting Matthew or Oswin, despite Oswin have a superior affinity.

quote

Show.

quote

If we're debating Matthew, he's obviously in the team, so this "units you'll use in the long run" doesn't fly. Even there, Prissy is so popular Oswin may not get the support. And the Serra support is auto-phail since it's a +1 support.

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They can't be away from the group forever.

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wtf? Anima is the CHEAPEST tome of the three.

quote

And they have good mt. Take a look.
Fire: 5
Thunder: 8
Flux: 7
Light: 4
Shine: 6

Thunder beats ALL of them, and has only 6 wt, which is tied for the second lightest tome of the five. Fire is the second lowest in pow, but is also the lightest.

quote

He's massively sucking for the time he's stuck at 20/0 (which is a REALLY long time), and he cannot kill anything because he'll hurt the exp rank.

quote

I clearly remember the HHM Fighters/Bandits starting with 7 base spd. Erk doesn't double them until 9/0 while Lowen doesn't double until something like 13/0. Guy doubles them at his base level, and after a few level ups, doubles them with steel sword.

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Nomads are also pretty fast. Pegs with slim lances too. Cavs are pretty speedy themselves; according to serenes-forest, they already have 5 base spd, and with HHM bonuses and being a few levels above 1/0, they'll have more.

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wtf?

http://www.serenes-forest.net/fe7/class_base.htm

None of the classes there will have anything near 10 def unless it's a cav or knight (I don't think wyverns appear yet).

quote

And wtf, Guy can use steel sword and still have like twice as much spd as Oswin.

I think Oswin's a little better due to his durability, but Guy is certainly very good.

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Raven is not going to be the same level as Guy.

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Funds is never a major problem as long as you don't promote Dart/Thieves and don't recruit Farina. According to WJC (in case you don't know him, he's pretty much a vet at this game who knows more about FE6-9 than both of us combined)...

quote

The small hit to Funds doesn't matter at all. You get over 1 million G in this game, and even after setting aside the money needed to S Rank, still have about 500,000 that you can spend on weapons/items/etc. The only way something like a Physic would matter is if you were promoting Dart + both Thieves + using Farina + etc, basically being as expensive as possible, and that's obviously not a common situation.

With the Silver Card, funds isn't a big problem.

quote

Are you suggesting we play the whole game with only iron weapons?

quote

Except Kent is likely going to be 6 levels higher than Raven when they join. Try these stats instead (this is normal mode)...

11/0 Kent w/ Iron Lance: 17 Atk, 11.5 AS--28-29 Hp, 7.5 Def, 27 Avo
5/0 Raven w/ Iron Sword: 13 Atk, 13 AS--25 Hp, 5 Def, 28 Avo

17/0 Kent w/ Iron Lance(B Sain, B Lyn): 23 Atk, 14.2 AS--34 Hp, 11 Def, 44 Avo
13/0 Raven w/ Iron Sword(C Lucius, C Priscilla): 18 Atk, 16.6 AS--32 Hp, 8 Def, 43 Avo

20/4 Kent w/ Iron Axe(A Sain, B Lyn): 29 Atk, 18 AS--41 Hp, 14-15 Def, 54 Avo
20/1 Raven w/ Iron Axe(B Lucius, B Priscilla): 27 Atk, 20 AS--42 Hp, 14 Def, 57 Avo

20/10 Kent w/ Iron Axe(A Sain, B Lyn): 32 Atk, 20-21 AS--46 Hp, 16 Def, 61 Avo
20/8 Raven w/ Iron Axe(A Lucius, B Priscilla): 31 Atk, 23 AS--48 Hp, 16-17 Def, 68 Avo

Close the level gaps if you want on those last two, it's not making much difference.

Raven never really beats Kent at anything except offense vs fast enemies. Kent has a better start, better mobility, better weapons, more Atk, and generally more Def.

quote

Enemies are not by themselves.

quote

You forgot Sain and Guy.

And then, if we look at other factors (bonuses, ease of getting support, speed of support, etc.)...

The Erk support is ridiculously fast (49 turns to B, starts at chapter 14).
The Raven support is also pretty fast (much faster than the Lucius one).
Guy and Oswin give better bonuses than Lucius, and start earlier.
The difference between the Sain and Lucius support is 1 def. Meanwhile, Sain matches Prissy's move.

Lucius' chances of getting the support are not good.

quote

If Marcus doesn't even get a single kill, how the hell is he helping enough to warrant High Tier, or wherever you have him?

quote

That's the point. Rebecca not being able to CA 1 range is only a major strike against her up until a certain point, in terms of the tier list. When you get to the really crappy frontliners like Bartre/Dorcas, Rebecca's better offense compared to them is more than enough for her to be better than them.

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With her massive avoid after supports, she's not worried about dying.

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Better weapons? Steel Bow Rebecca has similar attacking stats as Iron Axe Kent (1 less AS, 1 more att). The same for Iron lance Florina. If Kent or Flo use anything heavier, their AS suffers.

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Which is why she's at the very bottom of upper mid. If she was in a different class, she'd pretty easily make it into High or top of upper mid.

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Mine. Or rather, Reikken's from GFAQs, with a few personal alterations.

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Her offense is not a problem compared to the units around or below her on the tier list.

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She doesn't need a 10k promo item so she can use a bit more silver weapons to compensate.

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You just said it yourself. Oswin has the superior affinity.

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Read moar posts. ^^

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Prissy wants Oswin. You can't keep using the Priscilla is popular excuse for all her supports or she won't ever get one.

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Serra gives Def and Eva. Two things which healers need and the two things that Oswin wants to heighten his advantages as a wall.

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1. Enemies with good items to steal. (And I don't mean crap stuff like Vulneraries or Door Keys)
2. Fog of War
3. Treasure Chests and doors

quote

But significantly more expensive than all melee weapons.

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If you're including the first and second ranks of tomes, Luna & Nosferatu > all.

quote

Did you factor HHM class growths?

quote

I see no reason why he's not going to be if the comparison's at Lv 14/-. >_>

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At least with more cost-effective weapons than the Killing Edge.

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Well, your units aren't likely to be by themselves too. Unless they're thieves.

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Utility.

Okay, let's assume you don't use Marcus at all.

You've missed 1 Secret Book (Ch 12), 1 Torch (Ch 13), 3 Vulneraries and 5000G (since you miss out on getting Ch 13x), and recruiting Priscilla without hassle (Ch 14). Otherwise, you'll be using Lowen who'll be missing out on helping EXP ratings (and possibly Tactics).

quote

Well, one might argue that their ability to get WTA on most units would be better.

quote

Did he make a new one? The one which this started with was influenced by the old tier list from FEFF.

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One might argue that since Hawkeye and Lyn are around her.

quote

That is, if you're using her in the first place.

I'm sure GM can handle the rest of the rebuttal, but the issue of Guy caught my eye.

Guy is a good unit with beefy swordmaster stats and HHM bonuses. Unfortunately, he is locked with swords as a weapon choice. Normally, that would not be so bad, but this is the early-earlymidgame we're looking at for his training.

So let's take a look at the others locked to swords - that you would be using - before promotion.

Eliwood
Lyn
Raven
Matthew

Out of these, Matthew is probably the only one that wouldn't shed more than a few iron swords and would shy away from combat, but the rest are full-time combat units.

Now for those that have swords as an optional weapon choice:

Lowen
Sain
Kent
Marcus

Here, we have mainly Cavalier classes and a Paladin. Marcus won't really miss having a sword, but whichever Cavalier you choose needs a swords option, and St. Elimne help you if you use more than one.

So the point? Even if you manage to supply your units with an ample sword stock, you are running a gimped, sword-saturated team begging for gift kills. Your reliance on Hector, Oswin, anyone that isn't a sword user, etc. becomes apparent. Adding guy to that as an option you'd take all the way to endgame is detrimental to your ranked run.

quote

The offense Guy brings with that massive crit is more than worth it.

Guy is WAY better than Eliwood earlygame, and is way better than Lyn at any given time. You are not forced to use either Eliwood or Lyn; they are only forced itno the party for a few chapters and you can easily do without them. They also have crappy promotion times (if you use both secondary lords, one will promote late) and their items are worth 10k more than normal items.

Weapon choice has very little to do with your selection of units anyway. Would you use Bartre/Dorcas/Dart just because they use axes, and your only other axe users for earlygame are Hector and Marcus?

And wtf, stop saying Guy phails lategame. His crit kicks in, and even without that, he has pretty good stats. Take a look.

20/1 Eliwood, A Hector/B Lowen
37.2 HP, 18.5 str, 15.6 spd, 71.8 avo, 15.7 def, 7 move, 9 con

20/1 Guy, A Matthew/B Prissy
38.8 HP, 18.1 str, 19.9 spd, 64.5 avo, 9.5 def, 6 move, 6 con

And this is without Guy's HHM bonuses (although his spd/avo won't be higher). But he's by no means bad. And his spd growth is 30% higher so his spd lead will become massive. And Eliwood is currently using 10k more than Guy, so Guy can use a few more killing edges.

20/1 Florina, A Lyn/B Fiora
33.4 HP, 19.6 str, 18.8 spd, 54.1 avo, 9.8 def, 8 move, 5 con

Her only lead is literally flying. Guy beats her everywhere except str, which doesn't matter once you figure out her weapons are heavier so they'll kill her spd.

20/1 Kent, A and B whoever (his best three optiosn are all wind)
38.1 HP, 19.6 str, 16.5 spd, 50.8 avo, 13.7 def, 8 move, 11 con

I would say Kent's better (mainly because paladin class pwns), but Guy is definitely by no means bad, since Kent's pretty awesome.

quote smash fanatic

Except Hector is unlikely to notice any difference between the Oswin and Matthew support. Hector will not have enough avo to be dodgy, and Hector is so tanky as is that an extra 1 def from the Oswin support (it would be 2 at A level, but Eliwood is taking that) is not going to be noticeable.

quote

When a point gets countered, it becomes null until another counter is brought up, or if the coutner did not address the point. So simply saying that does not prove anything.

quote

There is also a three move difference between Prissy and Oswin, and Prissy never needs to hang around Oswin since Oswin liek never needs to be healed. A viable support, certainly, but not one that is guaranteed (like Hector x Eliwood, or Lyn x Florina, or Raven x Lucius).

quote

Do you even know what a +1 support is? I'll tell you anyway; it takes 80 turns for the support to go up one level. That's stupidly slow.

quote

Really? Let's break this down chapter by chapter.

(lots of stuffs)

So out of the entire game, there are about 7 chapters where you don't need a thief, out of like 27. You're fielding a thief for 3/4ths the game.

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The offense mages bring is more than enough compensation.

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lol no. Luna and Nosferatu are stupidly heavy. And you whine and complain about anima tomes being expensive (and killing edges too), yet, Luna and Nosferatu are even more expensive. Please follow your own points. The only person who can use Dark is Canas (and Athos, but he can use everything), who isn't good.

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Most def growths hover in the 20% range, or even less, and nothing breaks 25% except knights, who don't break 30%, so with the highest def base being 6 aside from knights (cavs have 6), nothing is reaching 10 at that point in the game.

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Guy joins 2 levels lower, about 5.5 chapters earlier.

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The offense Guy brings with that massive crit is more than worth it.

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What were you going to say when you quoted Raven and Kent's stats?

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Except if you don't form any sort of wall around Lucius, the enemies will go for him.

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wtf? I never said that Marcus is never going to be used. And he can do most of those stuff without getting kills, or not enough kills to make a significant difference in exp rating.

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WTA gives 1 att (and 15 hit, but most don't care about that), so it won't make much of a difference offensively.

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Er, how long ago was that? The one I posted, he made maybe a month, or a few weeks ago.

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Actually, if Lyn promotes 2nd of the two side lords, Isadora will have better offense, and generally has the upper hand in durability for most of the game.

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When we discuss a unit's worth, we generally assume they're being used, and what their effect on the team would be...

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Except that Matthew will not be near Hector for most of the game and Oswin will.

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No, I countered that aspect of your post two posts before this.

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Bull. You're not letting Priscilla go into the fray that often so Mov difference is null. And Oswin is a wall/tank to block enemies. He'll be gaining damage steadily.

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It's still one of the best ones Oswin's got.

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-__________-;; You COMPLETELY missed the point. Out of those three situations, thieves will only be near to the main party when good items are to be stolen.

And out of your analysis, that only happens in 3 chapters. So in 3 out of 27 chapters, or 11% of the game, Matthew's supports would be an advantage over Legault's better stats.

And therefore Legault is main thief since he'll be doing better for the other 89%.

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But no, Luna's and Nosferatu's uber offense and Luna's Crt rate is more than enough to compensate for their price. Irony, much?

I break down your posts and counter them one by one. And this part of your post was about Mt. Don't stray off-topic plz.

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Taking the three most common enemies in the early game,

Assuming Lv 16/- generic enemy HHM Cavalier, they'll have about 9-10 Def.
Assuming Lv 16/- generic enemy HHM Knight, they'll have about 15-16 Def.
Assuming Lv 16/- generic enemy HHM Archer, they'll have about 6-7 Def.

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And faces WTD from a whole lot of enemies. He's being used with caution.

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Iron Swords are a better deal. Attacking and killing more times > higher chance of killing one or two enemies as far as cost is concerned.

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Thieves, lords, and archers are targetted more often.

Enemy AI targets enemies in this order, IIRC:

1. (In)ability to counter attack.
2. Thieves and Lords.
3. Damage dealt to Max HP ratio.

So, it's not as if Lucius' top of the list.

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Exactly. You claimed that using Marcus is going to harm EXP ratings. And when I said it is not true, you ask for what reason Marcus was at such a high rank.

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Yeah, but when you're getting 1 Atk and 15 Hit on a large majority of enemies, it starts to make a difference.

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And if Lyn is promoted first, she'll have better offence. And you forgot that Hawkeye's offence is beastly as well.

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Well, from the debates I've read on FEFF, I notice that for Low to Mid-tier units, it is usually whether the unit is good enough to be used in your party.

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1. GameFAQs doesn't seem to have any Fire Emblem guides or FAQs with a tier list in them and none of them are credited to Reikken. And none of the Fire Emblem guides were updated this year. Did you get your tier list from another location?

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2. If WJC says we get around 1,000,000G worth of items and if Serene's forest says we need at least 847,000G worth of items to 5-star Funds, that doesn't add up to 500,000G worth of items that we can use.

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Guy is WAY better than Eliwood earlygame, and is way better than Lyn at any given time. You are not forced to use either Eliwood or Lyn; they are only forced itno the party for a few chapters and you can easily do without them. They also have crappy promotion times (if you use both secondary lords, one will promote late) and their items are worth 10k more than normal items.

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Weapon choice has very little to do with your selection of units anyway. Would you use Bartre/Dorcas/Dart just because they use axes, and your only other axe users for earlygame are Hector and Marcus?<