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So what you are suggesting here is we completely neglect Eliwood and Lyn? Bad idea, simply put.

You either have them up to speed or they become liabilities on maps you are forced to used them.

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I'm not just looking at the weapon choice, but Guy's effect on our team and ranked run overall. We know the drawbacks of using Bartre/Dorcas/Dart, which is why they are where they are on the list.

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Never said anything of the sort. Please re-read.

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That you would compare Guy to Florina means that you missed my point on why you should not use Guy. That, and your support char choices are inconsistent with your previous views. Are you using Florina? Are you using Fiora too? And Lyn, after you just bashed her?

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Dunno what that accomplished. You should use Kent? Was that it?

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No, lern2comprehend. Eliwood and Lyn being lords doesn't mean they're automatically on the team.

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No you're not. your main argument agianst guy is his mono swords, which is stupid.

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ANd you don't seem to understand the extent which Guy rapes both Eliwood and Lyn for the earlygame.

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You're obviously implying it if you say that Guy's not in it for the long haul.

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And wtf, stop saying Guy phails lategame.

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Okay, then drop Florina's supporters. Guy now EASILY crushes her. Guy being locked to swords isn't harming him at much as you are suggesting.

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If unit A is godly, and unit B is almost as good, then unit B is also pretty godly.

quote smash fanatic

Opening stuff takes all of liek 3 or 4 turns of the chapter.

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What was that?

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Once Prissy promotes, she'll be fighting.

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And Oswin may take some damage, but it's more important to heal others, who are usually losing liek half their HP in one turn because they can't tank like Oswin.

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+1 supports are NEVER good.

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No, you seem to have forgotten that Matthew is your only thief for half the game, and he gets you the silver card, which effectively doubles your funds. And on top of that, he can STILL beat Legault in combat with supports. So he helps the funds AND exp ranks, and can a decent fighter for most of the early and midgame so he's contributing to the combat and tactics ranks. Matthew for best character in the game kthnx.

         HP  POW  Hit  Crt  Def  Res  Eva
Matthew  29  14   109  10    6    3   51
Legault  29  16   106   6    8    4   38

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Thunder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luna and Nosferatu combined

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The enemies will not be level 16 when your units are level 16, or whenever you made the comparison.

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wtf? Raven has the same problem.

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except... iron swords are too weak to kill anything except spellcasters toward the endgame.

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wtf? They would much rather target the paper frail Lucius over the tank Hector.

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And then, after the earlygame, he becomes rather useless. So I don't get the point.

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lol no. What it does is basically mean Kent has a 1 AS lead over Rebecca in offensive stats.

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Hawkeye has bad spd, so he won't be doubling much. And Isadora with silver sword still has decent AS, and now has decent att too. And she gets full avo from basically every support, while Hawkeye's support list sucks (no one wants him), so she'll have good durability too.

         HP  POW  Hit  Crt  Def  Res  Eva  CtEva AS
Hawkeye  55  36   132  73   18   16   81   32    14 
Isadora  38  30   147  38   12   10   50   33    22

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Lyn promoting first means Eliwood gets shafted, and his promotion is about a billion times better than Lyn's.

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If we debate about a unit, we obviously are assuming they're on the team, and THEN we figure out if they're good enough to make the cut.

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A topic.

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He said "well over 1 million".

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If you don't use them for maps when they are optional, then how can you use them for maps when they are mandatory? They're either trained and fighting or in the way. How did I misinterpret?

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First off, I am considering aspects of Guy other than his weapon choice.

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Regardless, even if it is the main point, it doesn't mean I haven't checked stats and weighed that in. Secondly, on the topic of swords, Guy is facing vunerability problems with WTD(wyverns lol) just like every other sword user in early-to-midgame. The difference here is Guy never branches his weapon selection into anything else.

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Again, I never said Guy 'phails' lategame. I implied that training Guy earlygame would take slots and battle opportunities away from the Lords or the high-tiers. Not training guy renders his ideal endgame setup impossible. His high crit setup you had was nice, but the sacrifices made to do so were too great. That was easier to understand, no?

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That you would compare Guy to Florina means that you missed my point on why you should not use Guy.

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Different classes, roles and niches here.

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That, and it'll be a good while before Guy is set up for an actual offensive niche, rather than attack, hope-to-dodge, attack.

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You're not getting to all the chests/doors in 3 or 4 turns.

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She gains B support well before she gets promoted.

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... When you're tanking, you're blocking enemies from reaching those people who lose half their HP in one turn.

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Whoop the freaking doo. Matthew wins by 3 Hit, 4 Crt, and 13 Eva. Legault has 2 POW, 2 Def, and 1 Res. Arguably better due to having leads in 'definate'* stats.

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Luna and Nosferatu's offence > Thunder.

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Proof.

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Difference: The first chapter which you can use Raven from the start, Chapter 16x is full of Pirates.

The time between Guy's join chapter and Raven's join chapter has many Cavaliers and Knights. And Guy should therefore be used with caution.

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In every HHM run I've done, I've had no trouble killing anything except bosses, Wyverns and Generals in the endgame while using Iron Swords.

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Okay, I want you to try the first few chapters of HHM and don't touch Marcus. Just move him to an unobtrusive corner for the first few chapters until you can check your ratings.

I highly doubt that tactics, funds, and combat ratings will be at 5 starts.

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... what does that have to do with WTA?

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B Louise B Pent Hawkeye is the fastest support triangle in this whole game. Period. So he's using that since it can be completed in two to three chapters.

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Isadora only is at an advantage when she can DA enemies which are non-armoured. And even then, Hawkeye's 35 Crt lead can make him OHKO units when Isadora can't due to morphs having no Luk.

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Or we could promote Lyn first so that she becomes less crappy.

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Lol, that's a mistake I used to make in the past. You're not using every unit, otherwise we assume that Renault is on the team and give him supports as well.

And Renault's offence is pretty good with supports and the right weapons. So let's give him A Karel B Lucius. Now for weapons, let's give him a Lighting, but wait, he's promoted, so we can spam Aura with him since we don't have to use a Guiding Ring on him!

He becomes an offensive GOD in the endgame so Renault for High Tier!!!!

You see why this logic won't work?

quote smash fanatic

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You're not getting to all the chests/doors in 3 or 4 turns.

Only if they're very far away.

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What's your point?

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Oswin obviously cannot prevent every enemy from attacking the stuff behind him, and then there are times when the group splits up. If Prissy had to decide between keeping oswin the tank alive or Raven the mercenary or Sain the cavalier or Guy the myrmidon, she'd run off to the other three.

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I like how you ignored AS, and how Matthew is working with iron sword but Legault's working with steel. plz try harder.

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lol no. 8 mt/6 wt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negating res/12 wt or 10 mt/14 wt. And then Erk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Canas.

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No solid proof, but in FE8 and 9, most enemies remain unpromoted for about 3/4ths of the game. I don't see why this wouldn't apply for FE7. Or you could just play the game; enemy levels are never the same as your unit's barring the first couple of chapters.

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The only units who have better durability than him for those chapters are Lowen, Marcus, Hector, and Oswin. And Bartre/Dorcas, but they phail so let's just ignore them. I don't see your point.

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It would be helpful if you didn't keep forgetting what we're debating about.

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wtf? You must've been massively str blessed.

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I would say exp would be at 5. But combat is pretty easy; about 40% of your fights need to be wins. This is less than 2 rounding every enemy.
What do funds have to do with it?
Tactics... yeah, taht may run into problems. Oswin still exists though.

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I never said that Marcus should never be used, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I even said Marcus is useful in getting the team out of tight spots.

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wtf, how does that not make any sense? If Rebecca has 1 att against Kent's 1 AS, and Kent's WTA is somehow always in play, then Rebecca's 1 att disappears.

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Pent doesn't want him and Louise phails.

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wtf? an 8 AS lead is outright massive.

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Except Eliwood's promotion is better than Lyn's in literally every way (better promo bonuses, Eliwood gets a horse, Eliwood gets lances instead of bows, I could go on...).

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The flaw isn't with my idea. The flaws lay in things like...

1) Using Karel as a supporter, or the idea that he would get ANY supports in one chapter.

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2) The fact taht his offense is "good" when everyone is better.

quote GhostMember

quote Eliwood the Slayer

Bartre comes with a horrible 3 speed in the beginning, with hard hitting enemies. Chapter 13x is not good for him. Geitz can handle stuff when you get him, and that killer axe is a plus. 1-2's higher isn't very much, but I'll give him the props for that 5. That's it.

I'll consider that while I reread the arguments that MastaHazuki brought up earlier.

quote Eliwood the Slayer

With the easy Lyn mode, Serra can easily get to ten with Lundgren abuse (..). Up to level ten, and you'll definitely want to abuse Lyn mode for Hector hard mode. It's death without it. So, Serra at around level ten, coming at chapter 12, with a level three Priscilla coming three chapters later at level 3, surrounded by many lancers, with only Marcus to guard her.

Light magic vs Anima magic. Eh, anima magic wins. But you have soooo many anima users. Okay, one early, one good prepromote, and one underleveled late comer. Renault sucks, and Lucius has too low luck. His dodge is hurt. Badly. That leaves Serra, mrs. high dodge, speed, and res. Everything except def is okay. But her dodge is huge. She'll dodge everything, except maybe swordmasters and heroes. Not much of them, though.

Supports are dead even. Every person who can support with them are all good choices with your battle plan. Priscilla is covered by Raven and Oswin, while Serra is covered by Hector and Oswin. Dead. Even.

Abuse isn't considered when playing ranks. Although, I do see your point. Nevertheless, every LM character will be at Lv 7 on a non-abused LHM run so that's what people go with. Except for Wallace though.

Wait, abuse isn't considered? Then you might as well train your butt off abusing Ludgren with all your characters to 15+. Including Serra's healig.

Anyway, a Level 10 Serra just barely beats Priscilla's base Mgc and Def. Also, Serra isn't exactly significantly dodging more with a 7 level advantage (a mere 10 dodge). I don't see eye to eye on how Serra is more durable in the early game.

7 ain't her limit.

1. Erik's troops will NOT pillage Priscilla's village. Which means that you can take your own sweet time to take it.
2. The troops who can reach the village will have to get through Marcus to get to Priscilla.
3. Priscilla has enough movement to get far enough from Erik's troops to avoid combat.

What? There's more than one bandit, I recall. There's also the other bandits that will go south if you don't kill them and save the village.

Oh yeah, I recall rain. Priscilla's move isn't very good. I also recall nomads..

Anima users
Erk sucks for low Magic. All other Anima users have enough Spd to DA most enemies.
Pent arrives late.
Nino phails in a ranked run.
Priscilla joins early with good bases, albiet limited to staves until promotion.

Erk will have a bigger mag than Priscilla. 25 cap isn't very high. I agree with everything else though.

Light users
Serra may have a significant dodge lead, I'll give her that, but Lucius has a significant Mgc, Skl, Res, and Con lead which counterbalances that. AS is dead equal if they both use Lightning tomes.

Yes the mag, yes the skl, but it won't make a very big difference. Res? Since when are generic magics a threat to your magics?

And why would you put her within range of SM and Heroes? The point of Magic is for indirect combat. Unless you're rushing, I don't see the point.

I guess. Wait, I forgot what I said. Eh, sorry.

Supports may be dead even in bonuses. But take a look at the time difference.

The supports that Lucius'll probably use take about 100 turns.
The supports that Priscilla'll probably use take about 100 turns or earlier.
The supports that Serra'll probably use take over 200 turns. Either you're ruining tactics or she won't be getting those bonuses until lategame.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you lower the turns in LM?

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Ya. Rly. The only time that they're not really far away is only in Chapter 15.

If you think I'm wrong, go check it yourself.
Map resource.

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You claimed that Mov difference between those characters matter when they are supporting. I said that it doesn't as Priscilla stays in the back lines to heal. And you said that Priscilla attacks after promotion. So I said that she can get at least a B support before promotion so your argument is null.

It would be helpful if you didn't keep forgetting what we're debating about.

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Matthew uses Iron because its the best weapon he'll be using. Legault uses Steel because that's what he starts with. I said that in my post. plz try to read.

And no one's gonna DA a thief so AS doesn't really matter.

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10 Mt and restoring HP > 8 Mt.
Negating Res and 20 Crt > 8 Mt.

Both tomes are better at offence.

And I never said Canas > Erk. >_>

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Lol of course not. Enemies are often at higher levels starting from the mid game.

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Guy's not going to be leveled as much because you're using him with caution as he gets WTD against most enemies.

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No, just using good units who don't rely on expensive weapons like SOME units. >_>

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marcus stuff

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Erk is an option if you want to use both anima casters. But most people don't.

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Canas fails due to Dark Magic.

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Fiora's not even on your tier list on the fourth page.

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Louise is the best Sniper ingame due to auto A support. 'Nuff said.

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Yeah, but she does not ALWAYS DA. That's the thing about AS. And when she doesn't, DA, Hawkeye's outdamaging her.

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I know, but Lyn sucks unpromoted. Wouldn't it be better to make the suckier ones better than the already good ones?

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Lol no. A Canas B Lucius Renault with Aura has 34 POW, 21 AS and 26 Crt. Only High Mgc users like Lucius and Pent are outdamaging him due to melee units targeting Def.

Also Matthew>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Legault and Smash, you are underestimating Matthew's level advantage. He like level 20 due to class exp bonus. Also, Matthew's the best fighter earlygame since he can double units no one can, even marcus.

Matthew 20 steel sword B Guy C Oswin/Hector
Hp 31.5
Att 20.4/19.9
Crit 15.6/18.1
AS 17.0
Def 7.9
Res 4.1
Avo 52.5

Legault 12 Steel Sword
Hp 28.5
Att 16.25
Crit 6.625
AS 16.0
Def 8.25
Res 4.0
Avo 42.0

Can you say pwned

Now lets see when that piece of garbage called Legault catches up.

Matthew 20 steel sword A Guy B Oswin/Hector
Hp 31.5
Att 21.4/20.9
Crit 21.625/26.625
AS 17.0
Def 8.4
Res 4.1
Avo 57.5

Legault
Hp 30.8
Att 18.0
Crit 7.3
AS 18.4
Def 10.0
Res 5.0
Avo 51.6

.7 Hp + 5.9 Avo > 1. 6 def and some pointless res which can be easily rectified by barrier/pure water. Plus, not to mention that It was actually hard to raise Legault to this point while it was easy to raise Matthew.

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Res? Since when are generic magics a threat to your magics?

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Smash, you are underestimating Matthew's level advantage.

quote smash fanatic

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Res? Since when are generic magics a threat to your magics?

Luna Druids >_>;;;

Why does Matthew get an A and B support while Legault gets no support? Even if they're crappy, he should still get the best he can.

Matthew can double opponents until he breaks his sword, (which is good) but his attacks are a lot weaker.

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I recall ONLY 1 on chapter 25 magic. And there's half a chance you'll even get that level.

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Why does Matthew get an A and B support while Legault gets no support? Even if they're crappy, he should still get the best he can.

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Matthew can double opponents until he breaks his sword, (which is good) but his attacks are a lot weaker.

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Why does Matthew get an A and B support while Legault gets no support? Even if they're crappy, he should still get the best he can.

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Matthew can double opponents until he breaks his sword, (which is good) but his attacks are a lot weaker