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Dec 21, 09 03:28AMRelmutsie AN

Just wanted to give you an update on the debate - I'm winning.

quote New evidence
In Jak and Daxter: The Lost Frontier, Light Eco returns in the form of a Light Eco Drop; as in Jak 3, it takes a blue appearance. This factor contributes to the argument further, as will be explained in the next paragraph.

The Dark Sage's Mail - a new type of armour in the game - has 2 lines of bright lights on it. These lights change colour depending on the dominance of a certain type of eco power-up - for example, if the player has more Yellow Eco power ups than green, red and blue power-ups, the lights will turn yellow. Likewise with more Red Eco power ups, the lights will turn red, and so on. However, when all power-ups are in balance (all at the same level or have purchased all power-ups) the lights turn a white colour. This further contributes to the theory as green, red, yellow and blue eco all combine to create White Eco. If this were Light Eco, the lights probably would have turned a lighter shade of blue (an azure-type colour).

Furthermore, at the end of the game, as the Eco Core regains its power, it emits a bright white color, with rainbow colors flashing - looking extremely similar to the White Eco in Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy. Such a sensation of white eco can also be seen when standing on a Precursor Totem (which restores eco powers).

This is in comparison to the tiny section against the argument.

quote Whole against section
An argument for this theory is that Gol says "Light Eco" as it appears before him in the final battle. However, the distortion in his voice and the muffled sound (as a result of being inside the Precursor Robot) make this difficult to determine.

Some consider Jak's mutation from Dark Eco as a key factor to the change in use, and believe that this causes him to channel the eco differently. While in the first game Jak channeled the Eco in offensive form, Jak channeled the Eco in a defensive form in the third game, possibly due to the Dark Eco flowing through him.

Another argument is that the functions of the eco changed to suit the new gameplay (however this would open too many plot holes).

I really need the other section expanded if we even want to consider it an argument.

Dec 12, 09 10:02PMslowpoke152

My opinion is that they are different, because of the Daxter turning back thing, and different appearances and abilities. If Jak's dark eco abilities made him channel light eco different then regaining light eco powers should make his dark eco powers change, which they do on a completely different scale to the alleged effects on his old light eco powers. I reckon dark eco could be made (possibly) by mixing yellow and red eco, and light eco could be formed with blue and green, and when all 4 main ecos were joined, white, a mix of all colours, was formed. This may however decay or otherwise form light eco, or maybe light and dark eco, presumably in equal amounts. So, in a limited way, they could be the same, but only in the same way as a caterpillar and a butterfly, except caterpillars don't destroy precursor robots or KG death bots. I feel so strongly about my opinion I even made this account for it

Oct 31, 09 10:23AMAgwe

Hopefully they bring back Gol and Maia in Jak 4. That would be AWESOME!!!

And I personally think that the ecos are the same thing.
The precursors GAVE Jak the certain light eco powers, maybe they just didn't want to give him the really bad-ass explosion-y one. Or maybe that power was the purest form of light eco, and since Jak had been tainted with dark eco, he couldn't use it.

Aug 09, 09 04:50PMmayfield512

oh and wasnt the whole purpose of you putting up this thread was to prove that light eco and this so called white eco are the same thing. so y are you trying to shoot me down for saying that white eco never existed in the first place and that i was all just light eco? if you ask me, youre the one contradicting yourself.

Aug 09, 09 04:47PMmayfield512

sorry about some of the extra stuff in my post dude.. i pretty much copied and pasted it from another forum that had the same topic and i forgot to go back and edit it some.

and on the whole idea of them changing the mechanics of the eco to fit the game. y wouldnt they do it? i mean. look what they did to jak. he was nice in the first game in a friendlier looking environment. then turns all bad ass when he gets thrusted into the muck of haven city. same with the other ecos. they evolved from their pure forms to weapon cartridges that could actually prove some use in the second and third game.

ok. here's another point also. jak 3 was originally supposed to be the last game in the main series right? well think about it. they introduce this bad ass eco in the first game and only let you use it in the end. its no where in the second game at all, so everyone's like "man. i really want to use that bad ass eco that i got to use at the end of the first game in the next game" so what does ND do, they give you the kick ass light eco in the third game.

If the stuff at the end of the first game was really white eco and not light eco, then why would they introduce this bad ass eco at the end of the first game and not let you use it ever again through out the series (not even in the final boss to destroy a DARK MAKER SHIP). especially when the series was orginally supposed to end after Jak 3. oh and it was supposed to end after jak 3 cuz ive read articles in places like playstation magazine where the lead creator (or story designer, or whatever he was) of jak and daxter left the team after the third game. ND was originially (according to IGN) only going back to jak and daxter because the series made them so much money and they wanted to see what they could do with the series on the PS3 using the UNCHARTED engine.

and also i was thinking about this after i posted the last one (i even went back and played the game a bit to check it), but the light eco in the third game does add some offensive qualities. first of all, you can still use ur guns whie in light jak mode, but it also adds some power to them im sure. i have not fully tested that second part, but i have noticed that if you turn off unlimited light jak and go into light jak mode with a full meter, any fire you make with your weapons or any punch that you do drains your light eco meter some. its the same for the dark meter. every regular punch you do drains it some.

and back to the actual cutscene. not only do i believe they said light eco on the youtube video, but i went back and played that final battle more than six times within one hour afterwards. and that is easy to do. im sure you know how, but all you have to do is save several files right before you go up the final pillar and then replay each of the files from there. the resaon i say several is because i am pretty sure there is an autosave right after the final video.

The only way you can utterly prove to any one that there is this legendary white eco is if you get an official strategy guide and upload a scanned image of the page where it describes the final boss battle.

at the very least, this so called white eco and light eco are the same thing. think about it. ive heard/read people call dark eco purple eco cuz ,well, thats just the color it is. light eco is white and dark eco is purple. and on that note if you guys think that stuff in the first game is called "white eco" based on its color then i think you guys need to go back and look at it again cuz its definitely more than just white. its like a rainbow-ish (majority white but with like grey red green and yellow streaks revolving around it)

and on the plothole notes.. they've already taken several. lets think back to the first game. how could that dude be jaks uncle if jak is from the future? how could kiera be samo's daughter if she was never there in the future as a kid and is miraculously the same age as jak? through out the whole first game they talk about how the precursors died of long ago, then we find them in the center of the earth in the third game. at the end of the second, kid jak "opens" the last precursor egg, but what comes out of it is definitely not the precursors that we see in the third. Daxter turns out to be a precursor, but some how has no precursor abilities. that can be argued cuz he wouldnt have known how to use them, but he would have accidently discovered something about them. and the biggest one of all is the MAR plot. is jak mar, or is mar just his ancestor and damos just named jak after mar? that was never answered and was originally never supposed to be answered. people have just been speculating about it. and another plot hole. gol and maia at the end of the first game. when they fell in the dark eco pit, samos was like "well the dark eco probably destroyed them... probably." ND left that as a cliff hanger but never brought the two back into the series. My point is there are plenty of pot holes that ND made. they changed the eco to fit the environment and thats just all there is to it. none of the others existed in there original form so why should this one? the thing is none of the games were designed to stay completely true to the previous. if they were jak would have been stuck in the past, mute, and with no weapons for the final two. it would have been the same game over with just a tweeked plot

Aug 08, 09 10:05AMRelmutsie AN

Yes, I've watched it 100 times. They say white. The crappy sound quality on YT (compared to the actual TV) is probably why you're thinking that. They say white eco. Trust me. Call me deaf if you want.

Infusing and absorbing makes no difference. Channelling is the factor. It doesn't matter whether it's inside him or outside him; his main attribute is his unusual ability to channel eco. If they TRULY were the same eco, then he would channel them the same way.

Not once did I say the ecos disappeared. I DID say that we couldn't see them again, in their eco form, until Jak X (we'll find out the answer to that in TLF). So what're you trying to say? If we put all the types of ammo together we'd get light eco? Don't be ridiculous.

I can't believe you just said that. Are you SERIOUSLY saying that the eco has to change just to fit the game mechanics? What the hell is wrong with you?

Don't say gay in that context. Ever.

I'm telling you, you're insane if you think that altering the eco was only altered to fit the mechanics of the game. That would make no sense!

As for the second post (which you could have editted into your first post), YOU'RE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF! You're again saying that they altered the eco's properties to fit the game mechanics, which makes no sense. If white eco is truly the same as light eco, then it WOULD be defensive in the first game, or it would be offensive in the third. They have to have the SAME properties; otherwise it makes no sense.

If this bullshit theory is actually true, then ND walked into tons of plotholes. And I doubt they're stupid enough for that.

Aug 08, 09 09:08AMmayfield512

oh yea.. and those of you who wonder why light powered jak in the first is offensive compared to the defensive light jak in the third. thats simple. dark jak is already offensive. why would you need two offensive sides? especially when light is supposed to be the opposite of darkness. and think about it rage and destruction usually go with darkness. where as healing and protection go with light. hence the respective abilities

Aug 08, 09 09:05AMmayfield512

i dont get where you guys get the idea that the eco created at the end of the first game is called white eco. if you go back and watch that cutscene which is all over youtube, both Gol and daxter both call the stuff light eco

here is a link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jru1YvE0dWI

no skip to about 3:50 minutes into the video. this is the scene where the eco combines to form the light eco globs. gol says "light eco?!?! so it does exist" then maia says " they must not be allowed to get it". then daxter responds by saying, "light eco?!?! that could be the stuff to change me back,... or save the world"

no where in the game is white eco ever mentioned. there are only six ecos ever mention. green, red, yellow, blue, dark, and LIGHT.

and after the first game, the ecos dont technically disappear. they are made into the amo for the different guns. except green eco which is made into the health packs.

for those of you who are wondering why jak reacts differently to LIGHT eco in the first game than in the third. there is a simple answer to that and it relates to dark jak as well. In the first game jak was not infused with light powers. when he absorbed the LIGHT eco, it only gave him temporary powers just as absorbing the other four ecos did. In the third game, the precursors infused him with the power of light eco, just as baron did to jak with dark eco in the second game.

for those of you who still dissagree and say that its not true becuz it looks different in both games. well think about this, jak looks different in every game. his image evolves to fit the mood of the game. how gay would it have look to have those colorful globs in a dark environment. they changed the look of the light eco globs to the darker, simpler, bad ass light eco pills.

this soo called white eco and light eco are the same thing. the loock changes because the creators wanted the pills to fit the environment. the end

Jul 04, 09 04:32PMSimon1987

At the end of Jak and Daxter the 4 Ecos join to create Light Eco.

It probably had such a huge effect of power in the first one cause Jak had no Dark Eco within himself for the Light Eco to need to go against as well as to power up?

Video This Video shows the battle, and they go NO not the light eco.

I also got a friend to confirm they say Light Eco, without presuring them into it!
I asked another friend and they said they think it said White Eco...

This message was edited by Simon1987 on Jul 04 2009.

Jun 30, 09 06:40PMAjax

They aren't the same thing.

Remultsie is correct in his line of thinking.

Jak and Daxter Forum

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Jun 13, 09 04:04AMRelmutsie AN